Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Waves_Blade, May 9, 2012.
Well Abi did recognize that already, lives were reduced down to 5.
Well i am still saying having lives is funny. Should change into something else. But i will stop here, since this is not the original topic.
I'm not saying that everyone, or heck, anyone needs to be like me, in fact, whenever I try to host silly games I usually get "strange looks", if you will and they don't happen.
I agree that yes, new players like to win, I'm not expecting them to like failure or to be able to derive enjoyment from failure (not for a long time or without certain personality quirks), I never said that, I suppose I never said it wasn't that either so I'll concede on that point.
*quotes myself from an earlier post*
I don't see anything were not agreeing on, if pub vets are hanging the newer players out to dry whats the difference in difficulty gona matter?
You put a group of 8 brand new players together who have no pre-knowledge of the game, the chances are they will fail recruit mode, fail pretty hard even.
You put a group of 7 new players who are willing to listen with one vet and their chances skyrocket.
You put one new player who is willing to listen with a group of vets in a vet game there's a decent chance he will make it
(well, maybe I'm being to generous with this statement, I've seen newbs who can figure stuff out quick and newbs who have no idea wtf is going on and cant adapt on the fly).
Maybe some things aren't understood, or that I didn't type clearly enough, if so my bad.
The pub vet example in which you type "He probably won't even get to see the childish glee with which you type your words as you relish surviving Ere 2" (we actually didn't make it to era 2 ) was a game full of people who knew what they were doing, but still fooked up in a hilarious way. I wouldn't expect new players to find humor out of defeat.
(brood mother murdered one guy, then the marksmen walks up to it and dies to)
I agree that we shouldn't force new player(S) into it, but a new player, singular, or maybe even two, can be easily managed and guided by a group of more experienced players. I've seen players as early as 300 exp, sometimes less, giving out advise (usually rudely though) to other players.
I'm not saying we should force a group of new players into a vet game, hell no, even with a few vets (1-3ish) to guide them they just wouldn't have the experience and reaction times to certain events, they wouldn't have enough experienced players to cover for them.
I'll take your word for it.
Anything else I could say has already been said, except maybe for a message that displays at the end of the game to look for more exciting games and channels by going to the forums/channel, something along those lines.
lol @ zombie-ate though, funny stuff.
I don't doubt that, it's my fault for making such a statement that could be taken so broadly. Some failures can be amusing, but expecting new players to be able to do that is not what I meant. And in extremely serious games the goal is to WIN, not potentially take some amusement out of a defeat.
(I'd jump at the chance for pub alphas )
It's a nice thought, but a 'recruit' version of those modes just wouldn't feel right, at least in my opinion.
Well said, if something like this happened then recruit's difficulty could be potentially adjusted. *I hesitate to say increased because chances are some newer players might not even notice if you put giant flashing red words in the middle of the screen*
Maybe after the "I thought we were goners" at the start one of the marines could say something along the lines of "This is real, you die, you die for good so stick together and watch your backs". Something like that.
If your idea is solid, discuss it, who cares if it goes off topic. Potentially useful ideas are potentially useful.
Recruit mode stalkers need to move at full or close to full speed again. They are one of the only challenges for newbies outside of boss fights.
I'll just repeat what was said earlier,
If you dislike playing Public Games in Recruit Mode, a mode that for all purposes is intended to teach new players to play the game and help them adjust to playing NOTD, then don't play it. There is no need to make a teaching mode excessively hard, nor is there a need to try to reduce the number of people who get to use it.
I'll be rather honest, one of the few things I would say that Night of the Dead Spec Ops has going for it, is the fact that it has a tutorial mode mode that teaches some skills, and allows players to experiment a bit. While it does not touch on Story Progression and missions, It does teach the player a bit about the game and what to expect.
Ideally, NOTD should have such a mode available for a person to play in Private and hence, learn a bit about what to do, with the Primary Public Game being a general assisted hand-holding mode that helps them apply tactics and skills to game-play and ease them into NOTD.
I see no reason why you wish to have Public games having increased difficulty (That is what your complaining about the lack of Public Veteran games is essentially). It only punishes the new players, not the vets that play it when they feel like it. The only Changes I would want to see to Public Games are changes that help Newbies transition into playing NOTD.
So to end my rant: Don't play it if you will end up complaining about it. If you want a Certain Game mode, host it. Don't waste time making Public Games harder, spend time making them Teach (how this gets done would be a separate discussion).
Also, for the most part, I consider most people to actually have sufficient knowledge of Easy Company around 2k ~ 5k experience. That doesn't include the special cases of people catching on faster / being guided or taught by more experienced players.
Plus notd so has a -m command that shows u where to go if u get lost.
Off-topic: Did I play notd so with you arturia?
Complain? what complain. i just said its boring (obviously not only me) and its the truth. making game challenging is not punishment.
I may be "misunderstanding" you again, but I believe where we disagree is how to solve the following problem:
"There are not enough 'regular' games available within the channel, and pubs are too easy for me. I would like the option to join or host a low-stress game whenever I want, so that I can increase the enjoyment I get from the game when I don't feel like playing a -nm game."
Again, maybe misunderstood, but I've read your solution as "increase the difficulty of public games based on who is in them".
The problems I see with this are:
(A) New players are forced into a harder difficulty than they intended to join, or that we intended for them to join to introduce them to the game.
(B) Veterans are forced into a harder difficulty than they intended to join, and while they themselves should be able to handle it, they are consequently forced into a lead/teaching/high-patience role.
Right now, as a high XP Vet looking for a low-stress game, if I join a pub where I am the only Vet or even one of two, I usually will have to guide newer players along if I want to succeed. Already that's asking a lot from Vets - they are now often obligated to be in teaching roles, and some people just don't like teaching.
With your suggestion, not only will a few lone Vets be left with the onus of teaching, but they will be given the added burden of teaching new players in a setting not conducive to new players.
So is it not just unfair to newbies, but it is unfair to Vets who don't always like fulfilling the hand-holding role as well.
If you look at the forums, there are posts focusing on improving the Recruit campaign so that even an all newbie squad can have some measure of success in order to promote replay-ability. I think the best approach is to improve our Recruit mode so that it pulls players into the channel (while not being boring to the extent of turning people away - see Maniac).
With more players in more channels, with different XP levels, we'll see a greater amount AND variety of games. Then no one will have to worry about there not being enough players to host a game, and you won't have to worry about joining too-easy-for-me Recruit pubs.
Major problem with newbies especially 0 xp players, is that they just leave the game, even they survive till after erebos 2. And the questions that i always get from 0 xp players... can you guess what it is?
"When this games gonna end?" or after Erebos 2, "What? I thought thats the end." or "How far we towards to the end?" and i reply 15~20 mins then they go "WTF" and leave.
And i regularly ask 0 xp players if i see them in mid of game, "What do you think of this game" they go "Seems good" then i ask again, "What makes this game good?" "Eh... graphics? textures? But game is bit boring"
Well... Like i mentioned up there, recruit mode doesn't have that urgent feeling that you have to SURVIVE from this little things walking towards us. Most of beginners are mostly trying out the map, which means they want to have fun in short time. If you want to attract new players to NOTD, you need to make them entertained for whole freaking 1 hour 20 mins game. But in my opinion, recruit doesn't do any of that.
And back to topic, if theres one 0 xp or below 500 xp, should be recruit. i think because ec recruit and vet is quite different in difficult level. Its huge jump for even 1k ~5k players.
I don't know why people keep tunnel visioning on 'vet mode'. It's the lack of anything besides recruit.
The purpose of what I was saying is that if there's only one or two new players, allow for a normal or hardened game if the SR is actually high enough.
(Since people seem to tunnel vision 'vet mode', leave vet out of the equation then, make a < 500 xp or more put a cap on vet being activated, maybe even hardened)
The only difficulty changes to the game I thought about was in response to your post, in which I said the difficulty could potentially be 'adjusted', not necessarily increased.
The lack of 'vet games' isn't it, its the lack of anything besides ec recruit without having to resort to the channel, and who in their right mind would use the channel for a normal or hardened EC game?
Irregardless it seems, majority appears to be against the idea.
Not gona lie, I've never heard of the -m command before >.>, definitely make that pop up somewhere in recruit mode to let them know.
I've altered the original post/proposal based on the feedback I've gotten. To respond though...
If there are only two 'vets' in a pub my suggestion wouldn't affect you at all. If there are more than 2 newer players it would still default to recruit.
I do agree that forcing burdens on people isn't a good idea, but, if there are 6 'vets' in the game, and one of them they cant quickly type "Stick with us and don't facetank zombies" at the bare minimum, thats just... eh...
(well, I've been guilty of this too at times, I usually try to be helpful with tips if I'm not medic babysitting them, so I wont claim innocence.)
That, in essence, is the bare minimum newbs need to hopefully survive. Anything else is given as they ask or as the vet sees them struggling. Vets shouldn't be afraid to quickly pause and explain things in tight situations (tart, erebos, and queen are usually the key points to pause at).
A few basic examples
^ Not gona lie, this one has to best one of the most common I see.
Most can figure out after taking one or two of them that they are bad, but pre-hand information from other players and confirmation on the damage source is good to give them.
I'll look for the thread after I get back from class and read/post then. Thanks for the tip, but the last jab was unneeded.
A good point to be sure, that should definitely go in the thread he's talking about. (And yeah, I see it a lot to, not only with newbs, see plenty of vets randomly leave at times to, not just when they die).
I do agree, I should have been more thoughtful of that in the original post, which I edited with an updated proposal btw.
guys i did a veteran pub where a unlucky guy has 501 exp and SURVIVED. because he was the medic xD
Making the Game Challenging fucks over the newbies, not the "veterans". All it does is make the gamer much harder for them, those getting into the game. Our more experienced players will simply adapt and deal with it; newbies will just get destroyed the first time and not bother.
Erebos 2 used to be a perfect example of this, but only now it can be applied to his Regenerative Shell. Unless you tell them, they won't realize that shooting him = healing him, or by the time they figure it out, they are severely depleted / exhausted, and have essentially made little progress but wasted so much of their talents / energy on him.
As such, Making the game more challenging Punishes a select group of people; New Players. If they get fucked over in the first 10 minutes of the game because of what appears to be no reason, they certainly won't want to play again.
I'm curious though; why don't we just replace Air wave with a Toned Down Nydus Worm Mission into Recruit Mode, so that it is actually similar to Standard Easy company, only toned down in difficulty?
And yes Hero, you probably have.
Everyone here, has their first time. Everyone would get destroyed at first time. Failing is not a bad thing. Thats up to players to pick themselves up and learn why they failed. Its a matter of attitude and whether you have brain or not. Several failing games as beginner is fine as it is. I don't know why you always expecting some veterans tell them what to do all the time. Game has to be challenging and thrilling instead being boring, Because boring game is certainly not even worth trying out again. And again, Fool, new players already get feel bored by Erebos.
Note: For the sake of Simplicity "Veteran" refers to the higher exp players of NOTD.
Warning: Huge Wall of Text. And I mean HUGE.
Sure everyone has their first time and may get destroyed. Ensuring that happens though, shouldn't be the goal. Failure != Fun however and, people enjoy having success. Sure, the harder it is to achieve said success makes it fun, but in the end, if the game just shits on you for what appears to be no reason, why would you play it?
And tell me where it says I'm expecting "Veterans" to tell them what to do all the time. I don't see any part of what I typed saying that I expect that to happen. And Perhaps Public Games are boring because a "Veteran" is steam-rolling everything and carrying everyone, in the easiest game mode. Because it certainly isn't that fun when you get carried by one or two people, who devastate every enemy making it a 2 man show.
Unless you can get Newbies to do things, and actively participate instead of having one or two people take all the glory, then no matter how hard you make it, it still comes down to "veterans" carrying the team of newbies with their skills. I don't have to say anything to mow everything down as a Combat Rifleman in Recruit.
Before you say one thing about Nightmare Mode being fun because it is Challenging and difficult...
The difference between Public Recruit Games, and Private Nightmare Games is, Organization, Purpose, and Difficulty.
Now, some differences:
For the most part, Nightmare Mode games are organized, and Most / all players knows what is required to succeed; In Public games, New Players who are the majority there, do not know what is required to succeed, and there is very little organization.
Nightmare Mode also requires much more Coordination to achieve victory while Recruit Mode does not require anywhere near as much.
Recruit Mode was designed with the intention of familiarizing players into playing NOTD, holding their hand for the most part; Nightmare Mode expects the players to perform, and doesn't do the hand-holding.
Nightmare Mode was designed with the expectation of giving the players a hard challenge that tests their Knowledge, and Skill; Recruit Mode was not designed for players who know the game, but to help players learn the game.
In Nightmare mode, the difficulty level is high enough that 1 or 2 players cannot carry the weight of 8 players, but in Recruit mode, because of its nature, it becomes possible for Veterans to do so.
You also don't understand why I said Erebos 2 used to be a perfect example of a newb stomper. You may / may not have been here for RGB Erebos, which it primarily applied to. I also wonder if insults get us anywhere.
But despite all of that, There is only one party's input that is required, and is also missing; The New Players. Until we can get 8 People who have never played NOTD, and had them play a game, and tell us what they think, we won't get anywhere with this, Because everything is filtered through the Veterans, who aren't the intended audience of Recruit Mode, so it is impossible to get what the New Players think, while we receive what the Veterans think the New Players think. Recruit Mode is the intended mode for New Players and should be shaped around what the new players think, not what the "Veterans" think. But that also doesn't matter since it will get ignored anyways while the "Veterans" think they know best.
This discussion anyways, is about what a "veteran" thinks about Public Games, the primary entry point for new players into NOTD, always being Recruit Mode instead of other Game Modes that appeal to him more, and doesn't want to try to host it in the channel because it is an hassle, and our discussion over that.
To Summarize what I said:
There is no point in increasing the difficulty in Recruit Mode because it only affects the new players who enter into NOTD.
The game is boring for New Players because "Veterans" are in Recruit Mode, the easiest mode, and Steam Rolling every damn boss making it a 1 or 2 man show.
Counter-Argument about Modes; Recruit Mode, and Nightmare mode (Contrasting difficulty & Characteristics; May be a bit too extreme) Recruit Mode isn't supposed to be Challenging "Veterans" but new players, and operates assuming little to no prior knowledge of the game.
We are only getting the input and interpretations of Information by "Veterans" not New players, who are impacted the most, and are the primary audience of Public Games. All information is here "Veterans" interpretations of what new players think or have said, or just the thoughts of "veterans".
This entire Thread is about a "veteran" disliking how Public games, being the entry point into any game, are always Recruit Mode, a mode intended to teach players.
^ Dis hurr
True story, bro. If you only read one thing in that post, make it this.
That isn't in my latest wall of text, but the one before it...
I thought you quoted the Nydus Worm Part again, because of the
" ^ Dis hurr " part.
First, before I respond, your post is good, great even, so thank you for it.
To point A (I inserted letters to the points I wanted to highlight and respond to and cut out the rest)
This is something that I do think should actively be sought after (irregardless of this thread or any other thread), I haven't read the thread mick suggested I go read yet, so I don't know if anyone made a suggestion like this:
At the end of recruit mode, in victory or defeat, I think there should be a comment that flashes across the screen asking for newer players to come to the forums and give their input on the game in a specific section created just for them.
To point B
I do host games actually, and usually try to host every time that I log on to play for periods of time when I don't feel like pubbing or hunting for other peoples channel games.
Today for example I got to host several all random games, yesterday, I got to play with another group of players in their NM Alpha games (in which I learned more about being a medic), day before that I think I only pubbed one or two games and did nothing else, ect...
But all of that doesn't matter, because I didn't intend for this to be 'an about me' thread, thats kinda the customized games thread's purpose.
I made this thread to make a suggestion about game mode selection that I thought made sense and was reasonable, I saw that it wasn't and altered it again in the original post. Though I'm assuming the general majority still feels "No".
Point C: I do feel sometimes people don't really read what I type.
I NEVER intended nor really even suggested that Recruit's difficulty be increased. The only comment I made about the difficulty was in response to AP's post earlier. The thread was never about altering recruit mode itself. Recruit mode is a mode for recruits, it was designed in mind "I think" that it would be full of new players, not a bunch or few vets + newer players.
The thought behind the current proposal is when there is a sever imbalance of newb:Vet ratio in a game. On the assumption that newer players should double factor in a game.
2 newer players (4) < 6 Vets (6), but, 3 newer players (6) > 5 vets (5) in determining difficulty imo.
Anything more than 3 irregardless of a ratio is just silly obvious that it should be recruit, half of the bloody squad is raw.
Irregardless though, I dont see anything happening after reading through the feedback/thoughts/replies, just adding in my thoughts/responses/clarifications/w.e
That is where (B) came into play. It wasn't intended to come off hostile, but it looks like it did anyways. The part I underlined is where I pulled most of it, and hence, hassle to host it, and then lots of discussion about Public Games. I may have mixed a few other people's views in it, but I do apologize if it came off as hostile.
Sometimes, you just don't want to spend an hour to an hour and a half writing something, and quickly try to say everything with little regard to the diction and syntax. Hence, block o text.
Separate names with a comma.