C-Series Armor: Discussion of Usefulness and Suggestions Thereof

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by ArcturusV, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I swear we need a Quick Question Sticky or Forum... but alas..

    Background Info: Playing with someone who seemed slightly smarter than the otherwise Rank Noobs in Pub today (Only slightly. He lost points by claiming he couldn't run Civs as a SurvCon in Newbie because he "Didn't have stealth yet"). I remarked how strange it was that the other dead Recon had C4 armor on him. I noticed afterwards he also grabbed up C4 armor as he claimed "Because I needed it", thinking I was talking about him.

    Eventually this gets me, and some of the noobier seeming Marksmen trying to tell him that as a Recon he doesn't NEED C4 armor, and that it in fact does almost nothing for him.

    He claims that having armor "reduces the chance to get crippled, etc". And that when I claimed Bullshit (Because hell, I take conditions just like anyone else when I Armor Tank), that I needed to "Check the wiki" because it explicitly stated that Armor reduced Ailment Chances.

    I did check. I could find nothing on various relevant pages to back up the claim.

    So my question: Does Armor actually effect your ability to be effected by a condition?
  2. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Not a fucking chance.

    If you want the long answer. The only thing armor does is a behavior stating "Add +X armor", for C2/C4/C6. XS4 is different, but is the same thing principally, just with shields n shield armor. KA/RA add an ability that works on a retooled version of Immortal's hardened shields.

    Meanwhile, ailments are triggered on hit, and are independent of the armor stat. If they were, tanks with high armor would be borderline immune to most ailments. There's no magical hidden conditions on the armor anywhere influencing ailments.

    Ailments are going to be a separate trigger system, activating on "unit hit" or given by "triggering unit." It's not as cut n dry as what I'm going to say. But basically, when an (enemy) unit hits you, it has X Y Z % chance to inflict ailment A B C. It varies by unit. Ie, ghouls can actually inflict blindness, and Larva almost 90% of time inflict venom (but can give other ailments too). Because of this, ailments are more dependent on what hits you, than getting hit in general. We all know agrons give lots of Open Wounds, and Larva give Venoms. This system just extends to every single unit. Except, certain units (ie terran units) are validated to be unable to give ailments. Things like PsiOps blackout or technician exhaust come from Abilities, not from triggers.
  3. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    But Arc, Ability even posted that in your own thread in the guide forum:
    However, high armor does mean that certain hits do not actually count as hits (i.e. safeguard assault, ttd demo, motm tech with open cockpit) and therefore may not stack ailments.

    Tried that in a pub with high armor - ghoul hitting me didn't count as hits, took like 0.5 dmg a hit and didn't stack ailments
  4. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    a related question: is there some equation that determines ailment chance based on the percentage of marine hp remaining? or does the chance to receive an ailment increase at some set percentages? it's not that significant a detail, but i'm curious since i was not aware of this.

    anyways, regarding the original statement, if ailment chance is indeed related to hp remaining as ability stated, increased armour indirectly lowers the chance of receiving ailments by reducing damage taken.
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Yes Ghost. I wasn't really under the illusion that Armor Value itself has an impact on ailments in particular. But I wasn't so cocky to think that there wasn't a very, very, very, very minute possibility something was at work that I didn't know about. Like something that said "If wearing C2, Ghoul has 2% less chance of inflicting..." in the code. I doubt it though.

    But I had to ask to make sure.

    What I thought The Man meant at the time (Though I have no proof), is that if you already have an ailment you have increased chances of getting ailments. So once you get that first stack of Open Wound or Venom you have increased odds of taking Venom or Open Wound from hits. I don't know if it's true, but sometimes it seems plausible.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    I wish armor decreased ailment gain rate. It'd make Protection Assaults less of a pain in the ass to play, but it would basically grant ailment immunity to the Technician while in MOTM, cockpit open or not.
  7. Mirage
    • Donator

    Mirage ಠ_ಠ What are you looking at?

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Perhaps could introduce new kinds of armor that would be specifically created for stopping ailments when they're applied?
  8. Annihilate

    Annihilate New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Don't get hit. Simplest kind of armor.
  9. Mirage
    • Donator

    Mirage ಠ_ಠ What are you looking at?

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Yeah because every player is NEVER EVER hit in any match.
  10. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    And never has a single hit given a player Criple, Venom, and Open Wound all at once. My record when taking a shot from an Infested Marine during the HAL Shutdown Sequence with a Laser chasing me just for added Doom Assurance.

    It wouldn't be a BAD idea necessarily as far as I can see. Say something like if you are wearing C6 Armor you have a 25% reduced chance for Ailments. 15% for C4, 5% for C2 Armor. Wouldn't be that unbalancing. Not saying Per Point of Armor, and making Protection Assaults and Mod Techs immune to crippling ailments.
  11. Annihilate

    Annihilate New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Non-tanking classes shouldn't be getting hit and have the lighter c2/ka or even xs-4 on the off chance they do get hit.

    Tanking classes have the necessary armor of ra/c4/c6/xs-4.

    There is no need for such an armor to exist unless you can defend otherwise, the simple answer is not to get hit to even worry about getting ailments and this does apply to all classes.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Your stance of "Non-tanks should never get hit" (I'd say hit often instead) doesn't necessarily apply long as Troll Spawns and Spawn Lag exists.
  13. Annihilate

    Annihilate New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    And that's why there is a medic class when ever ailments do present themselves. Not to mention there are plenty of medical items to compensate in the event there is no medic.

    I believe there isn't enough of a need for such an armor to exist that handles exclusively with preventing ailments.
  14. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    these kind of unhelpful comments are what create and sustain the impression of elitism that infects the notd community. by your logic, let's remove medkits since good players will simply not get hit and take damage.

    there are so many situations where avoiding hits is extremely difficult, if not impossible. random worms granting sight to infested, random creep spawning just as ghouls or parasites are charging you, etc. the game is not easy and that is actually one of its strengths. but to claim that every situation can be solved by superior skill is just plain wrong. everyone who has played this game, especially on harder difficulties, has at some point been killed due to bad luck.
  15. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Me either. Though I wouldn't mind if the current C generation armors actually had some built in ailment resistance. Cutting down the odds of taking them. It also gives say, Assault Tanks or ModTechs a reason to rock C6 instead of just using RA for everything, for example.
  16. Annihilate

    Annihilate New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    If there were to be any changes regarding armor affecting ailments, I would agree that point would be the best place to start.
  17. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Why is being told to "dodge more" seen as elitist?
    While "don't get hit" is a bit of a tall order, it is something everyone should be striving for in every game. :|

    The only problem I see with ailments is with AssTanks. While they're not supposed to facetank everything to lessen the burden to the medic(s) or team's med supplies, are especially prone to getting these debuffs due to a lot of hits inevitably breaking through their shields.
  18. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    It's "elitist", though I would say there is perhaps a better term, in that PC Gamers tend to be elitist douchebags as a standard. I can't count the time I'm watching someone play a game on the FaceTubes or something and a bunch of people comment mocking, saying how they suck, etc, because they didn't do some expert Micro that you would only typically see at Pro Korean levels, and truth be told are probably better than those people commenting unless they are using Click Macros, Aimbots, etc.

    Considering Lag can be an issue. Troll spawns as well. Who hasn't died before to things like a Baneling train in nightmare spawning right in the middle of a team? I call BS if you say Never, or you don't -nm much. Or a Slasher erupting out of the ground right on top of you. Or you had a Hugger Quick Snap a hug, and some random ghoul got a lucky tap or two on you. These things happen and are more or less facts of NOTD life. Particularly since any hit can inflict any status, and some of them are particularly deadly/trollsome like Cripple and Short Circuit. More so in Nightmare with all the charging and creep spreading enemies that can result in even a microsecond lapse in judgement or a misclick having you chewed up badly. It becomes elitist to say that everyone should play perfectly 100% of the time or they suck and need to be better. Especially with factors like Spawn Lag, or a random Nydus popping up, giving sight to Infested Marines who are on the low ground from you, etc.
  19. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Then why not take ailments for what they are? A risk for every hit you take. Why is there a 'need' for additional cushioning against ailments?

    If you feel you can take the risk from that ghoul running at you or running along walls after the fact that InfMarines just spawned and maybe waiting/stuck above walls? Do so.
    Otherwise, please attempt to dodge or avoid the situation entirely, as well as stay with the team and its superior firepower.

    If an individual, on the other hand gets into such a troll situation, such as Arc's legendary/phenomenal take 3 ailments for the price of 1 infested marine bullet, the team should be there, with you (or you're with them) to help so that it's not that big of a problem.

    Even if the med isn't FA, there are a lot of cushions for these "facts of NOTD life" known as ailments.
    Medic/av for venom. Kits for health, bandages for OW.
    Cripple will have to be dealt with by team moving at slowest member's pace
    (which as I'm sure you know are usually how it's done unless they decide to abandon you. In which case, screw that team)

    If there's no Medic, you're either in a pub or survival. In both cases, having no Medic = a hazard of doing/playing either mode.

    If shit happens to everyone in the team at roughly the same time, well... shit happens. Even the most prepared teams get into troll level situations. Or the medic died which kinda counts as an oh shit situation.

    If you're getting left behind, tell the team immediately. Sure they'll tell you to run faster, or "move more, shoot less", but they will wait and commonly even turn back to get you
    (provided of course you're not half the map away, in which case you did not tell them immediately)


    And yes, lag is an issue. Especially if you have a connection and hardware as bad as mine. There was a point where getting dropped from a game/lagging out and other connection related issues was referred to by some as pulling a Lyanden.
    (It's near impossible for me to tank the Queen with her Frenzy now as it requires kits/taunt and stun during a point where my character responds 5 seconds after I order the command.)
    So yeah, I know that feel brah.

    =============================================================================

    One of the properties the game has is to be difficult for a team and near impossible for individuals.


    Apollo B: Hades success rate is supposed to be only 20-30% ish
    Survival is kind of the same though not quite where it's aimed to be as evidence of the farming (which I hear was a good place to farm -NC/no medkits spawn)

    -NM for each of the modes further lessens chances by 50% etc.

    To solo away from the team with these odds is unwise.

    Is this pro elitism? I wouldn't say so. It's just NOTD SC2 being NOTD SC2.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: Quick Question: Armor and Conditions

    Heh. I'm not saying your wrong in that a player should accept it and roll with it. And of course try to minimize risk wherever you can...

    ... not that I necessarily uphold that standard. I often find myself "Throwing myself on the grenade" for newbies and such even if I could have normally knife kited flaming obliterated it without any trouble at all.

    And troll situations like what happened to me in that legendary cluster fuck situation. Where due to the nature of HAL Lasers, you're burnt toast. Your team needs to spread out, you can't sprint away, and if you're crippled might as well just kiss your ass goodbye because your fate is 100% out of your hands at that point. There is nothing you can really do about it other than shrug, accept it, and hope either your teammates save you, the laser decides to turn around, or that your team just shut down HAL and the lasers will disappear in 2 seconds.

    Not like I advocate Condition Immunity, or something like -10% chance for every point of armor you have or something. It's not a problem really either. Would be nice though. Give say a recon a reason to consider picking up a C2, trading the slight reduction in speed for the slight resistance to Troll Ailments if they so choose.

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