Blood Frenzy and Assault Balance

Discussion in 'Class Discussion' started by Kith, Jun 2, 2012.

  1. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

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    Kith: How's the new Assault working out?
    ArcanePariah: Pretty good so far
    ArcanePariah: I havent been able to play him
    ArcanePariah: We did have a EC Pub with 3 arms, queen got melted so fast it wasnt funny, she started to shirek and was fleeing before actually shrieking
    Kith: A thing of beauty, that
    Kith: Really all we need to do is make it so the Blood Frenzy ministuns don't stack
    Kith: It'd be a significant nerf, actually
    Kith: hm
    Kith: I'm starting to think
    Kith: Blood Frenzy should be
    Kith: AS or MS
    Kith: that stacks with
    Kith: the Conc/harvester
    Kith: as/ms loss
    Kith: because ministuns
    Kith: are just
    Kith: too fucking ugly
    Kith: ministuns can go either way
    Kith: they can either be amazingly OP when stacked
    Kith: or
    Kith: they can totally fuck over the tank
    Kith: when someone ministuns at the wrong point.
    ArcanePariah: Yeah
    ArcanePariah: Would stacking slows be worthwhile?
    Kith: The slows wouldn't stack
    ArcanePariah: i think it was brought up once before
    ArcanePariah: Hmm
    ArcanePariah: What if for non heroic we keep the stiuns but for heroic we get knockbacks instead?
    Kith: ...
    Kith: PFFFFFFFFf
    Kith: punt ere around the map
    Kith: you realize that the way that knockbacks are coded
    Kith: they're basically punt stuns
    Kith: right?
    ArcanePariah: yes
    ArcanePariah: its move them direction X
    ArcanePariah: usually same vector from caster
    ArcanePariah: then stun at end
    ArcanePariah: can we have it be no stun, just moves them backwards>?
    ArcanePariah: and not a lot like Force push, thinking each crity makes them move like .1 units back
    Kith: The problem is
    ArcanePariah: SO yes, you could "punt" ere back like 4 units
    ArcanePariah: slowly
    ArcanePariah: but it stops him from advancing
    Kith: uh
    Kith: the problem is
    Kith: (again)
    Kith: that the knockbacks in NOTD
    Kith: freeze unit status
    Kith: so
    Kith: they're basically
    Kith: stuns.
    ArcanePariah: kk
    ArcanePariah: hmm
    Kith: So anyways
    Kith: the slow debuffs
    Kith: wouldn't actually stack
    Kith: unless they were differing levels
    Kith: which
    ArcanePariah: Could instead then, we go with giving frenzy crits penetration?
    ArcanePariah: Ie if crit procs
    Kith: What, like
    Kith: armor pen?
    ArcanePariah: No
    Kith: or like
    Kith: banshee rockets?
    ArcanePariah: like backlash rockets
    ArcanePariah: yeah
    ArcanePariah: linear splash
    ArcanePariah: on crit
    Kith: ...
    Kith: hey Arcane
    Kith: how would that work
    Kith: on the Shotgun.
    ArcanePariah: Massive, massive, massive aoe dmg?
    Kith: Potentially
    Kith: 10 radius
    Kith: of damage.
    Kith: If not more.
    ArcanePariah: Whats the current splash radius of Shotgun templates?
    ArcanePariah: Im only thinkign like adding 1 linear splash to any given weapon
    ArcanePariah: and yes it would also probably do very weird things with Flamer as well
    Kith: It's like
    Kith: fuck, man
    Kith: I don't even know
    Kith: You could just drop a damage template when you kill a unit
    Kith: I.E. volitile injection
    Kith: just based on killing something under blood frenzy
    ArcanePariah: Hmm
    Kith: Honestly
    Kith: I don't want to do that though
    ArcanePariah: Yeah
    Kith: just fukken
    Kith: as/ms debuff
    Kith: Have one for the crits of Blood Frenzy
    Kith: have one for Conc crits during Harvester
    Kith: Conc crits of Harvester drop as/ms by 30
    Kith: Blood Frenzy crits drop as/ms by 30
    Kith: percent, that is
    Kith: total percentage drop is 60%
    ArcanePariah: umm
    ArcanePariah: wont be 60
    ArcanePariah: be like 51
    Kith: ...
    Kith: good
    Kith: then that's basically
    Kith: what it is now
    Kith: all we gotta do is bump up the duration of the debuff (say one full second)
    Kith: on each
    Kith: and then
    Kith: bam
    Kith: balance get
    Kith: stacking Arms will no longer be disgusting
    Kith: and Blood Frenzy will be useful for bossfights
    ArcanePariah: Yeah I made the same mistake you did in regards to opcomm adrealine
    Kith: If you stack arms
    ArcanePariah: it can be coded both ways i think
    Kith: you just get
    Kith: more damage
    Kith: as opposed to
    Kith: MORE STUNLOCK HUEUEHEHEHEHEHE
    Kith: anyways
    Kith: it's like fukken
    Kith: 1 am
    Kith: I'm tired
    ArcanePariah: yeah
    ArcanePariah: gnite
    Kith: I've been moving shit all day
    ArcanePariah: sleep now
    ArcanePariah: rest
    ArcanePariah: :p
    Kith: so I'm gonna post this raw chatlog in Black Ops
    Kith: and then crash.
    Kith: G'night.


    TL;DR VERSION:

    Drop the ministuns from Blood Frenzy crits, in its place put in a new debuff:

    30% attack speed and movement speed loss on targets critted by Blood Frenzy

    Keep that debuff consistent for both levels to prevent differing levels stacking. Oh, and, keep the damage levels as they are now, considering the disable portion is being reworked to be far less abusable.

    Change the as/ms loss from Concentrated Fire during Harvester from 50% at 0.5 seconds to 30% at 1 second.

    Again, some debuff no matter what the levels of the abilities to prevent variant level stacking.

    WHAT THIS WILL DO:

    Stacking Arms Assaults will no longer be the recipe for tearing EC a new asshole. Stacking Arms will net you much more DPS, yes, but it will no longer be a stunlock party that will faceroll every boss with a combination of huge amounts of damage and "you can't move, have a nice day".
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I'm not exactly crazy about the idea of Harvester and Blood Frenzy both having the same non-DPS ability.

    ... I realize the original version of Overwatch had that problem now...

    Oddly I wouldn't mind it being DoT and Blood Frenzy being something of a literal name, giving open wounds to enemies on crits.
  3. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    For now, I've reduced the attack and movespeed loss on Harvester of Sorrows from 50% to 30%. I'm keeping the duration at 0.5 secs because raising it to 1 sec is not a material net change in distance traveled.

    Any violent objections to removing the stuns from Blood Frenzy? Agree with Arcturus that both skills with both too similar without it.
  4. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't mind, except for the apparent fact that Open Wounds doesn't stack more then 10 times >_>
  5. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Yeah, but 10 wounds isn't exactly chump change as far as DPS goes. And long lasting DPS at that. 10 HP/Sec or so on a tier two skill on a basic class in the basic storyline? On top of having the damage buff of Blood Frenzy as well because I wasn't suggesting axing that.
  6. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    I wouldn't mind Open Wound spam, not in the least. 10 stacks of OW is some pretty serious damage.
  7. Arturia

    Arturia Well-Known Member

    Rethinking it, I actually don't think there is a problem. Its 2400 damage over 4 minutes, confer with Medic's T3 stacked twice being 3000 over 2 minutes.
  8. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    So, are we in agreement, or...?
  9. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    What's this open wound thing about? I'd prefer not having too many player talents that inflict same ailments on enemies as they do on you. Besides the part that mass bleeds on screen will have an effect on people's framerates, especially the low end rigs.
  10. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I do run towards the low end myself. And I can say from Tech playing (I love Exhaust!) that conditions have no noticeable impact on any lag. Even when I Exhaust and end up giving something like 40 stalkers a ton of conditions... as happened one Apollo Security Team Gong Show when the runners didn't haul ass and come save me...

    And the idea is well... I rather Harvester and Blood Frenzy do different things, instead of them both giving 30% Move/Attack speed reductions.
  11. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I get massive lag from having some 40 odd stalkers on my screen without ailments :D

    Anyway, in terms of them doing different things, I was thinking maybe increase splash damage (not radius, as that's difficult to code) but add tiny miss chance like 2%?
  12. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Why add a miss chance on a DPS increasing skill? :|

    Anyhow, splash damage... hm. I immediately thought "change from falloff splash to perfect splash for duration", but... that would immediately trivialize every single mob in NOTD.

    I like Blood Frenzy's OW thing. Yeah, Tech's Black Dog gives Open Wounds, and DELTA is going to get ahold of nasty little traps that spread OW and Cripple, but I don't think BF giving OWs is going to infringe on those abilities in any way. If anything, it will give the Assault contextually appropriate DPS that does not involve expending ammo, something that he lacks compared to the Rifleman and the Commando. If Blood Frenzy doesn't lower movespeed, then it can be the "kiting ability", the one that you hit enemies until it runs out and then kite until they bleed to death (something that shouldn't take long, considering the stack rate due to crits).
  13. HDD
    • Donator

    HDD Well-Known Member

    I miss the chainsaw, that he had before
  14. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    I would prefer reducing the damage on Blood Frenzy for map mechanics reasons if that's fine (from 30/60% to 25/50%) and replacing the mini-Stuns with a -50% move/attack speed debuff for similar duration.

    Rationale for not using Open Wound (although I like the idea):
    - More animation effects (not good for slower PCs)
    - Won't register as player kill if enemy dies by Open Wound. Technically, Open Wound is a negative health regen rather than damage per sec. If I change it to damage/sec, there will be too many damage received events firing in NOTD.

    Any violent objections?
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Doesn't bother me at all. I understand the sentiments on not wanting the combos to do the same thing, so I'll fiddle with things that Conc/Harvester can feasibly do without breaking balance.

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