Black Ops section and problem of community opinion of it.

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Niktos, Apr 6, 2013.

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  1. Niktos

    Niktos Well-Known Member

    First of a quote of what set me on rail of this topic and what i see as biggest flaw of whole BO idea, important part bolded up.

    Finalizing something in a group of 'experts' is good idea in itself, problems arise when such an idea is released to the public marked as 'seeking feedback' at a time of implementation. It makes it look like a briliant case of authtoritary rule of 'buy any color of a car, but make it black'.
    What i would like to see is:
    1.If you want feedback post it BEFORE it goes live.
    2.Threads that contain the BO discussion itself should remain hidden.
    3.When looking for public feedback just make a summary void of names and post it then.
    4.When something is just announced dont bother moving a thread from BO, just post it in changelog.

    My reasoning is, current way of doing things adds up to not good anyway opinion of BO among community.
    I assume whole dev/BO group is aware that big chunk of community easily translates status of BO to being a part of circle jerk team that messes game up without even playing it. While i personally got no clue how many BO members are there total, i must agree that most of them seem not active be it on forum or in game.
    In my 'career' that is currently at 10 or 11 months i had contact with a total of 9 black ops members. To this day half of them actually kept on playing. Of all the blackops i played with i consider 2 being worthy of calling an 'expert' regarding notd rest was mediocre or specialized in painfully narrow part of gameplay. [No i am not considering myself an expert either]

    It is just my opinion but BO should be a stealth unit of people that can throw/discuss ideas without a burder of getting namecalled on it.
    I keep on catching myself with a phrase of "fucking kith making life hard" when 2xp of bonus from comm tower goes around my nose if a team is not capable/i dont trust them enought to just sit it thru and dl.
    And while such a thing can be fun sometimes as an insider joke it is generally bad for community as whole.
  2. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Honestly, I'd have zero issues abolishing the Black Ops forum and moving all topics to NOTD Discussion. Almost all of the Black Ops members are either inactive or don't use the damn Black Ops section. Most, if not all, of the posts in Black Ops nowadays come from me, HipHopDragon, Arcane, Reaper, and Ability with a polite smattering of other dudes. In my opinion, this is not enough to warrant an entire separate forum section.

    There are, of course, some things that the public does not need to see, which we can just shove into some vague Dev Forum or something with a section for NOTD2 Pre-Production. However, this is not exactly my call, so I'm not so sure how far this is gonna get the general consensus.
  3. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    Have "notd2" group ppl. Or leave current bo as it is. Just put it in public before doing something. If this was blizzard and u had 100000000000 ppl suggesting n needed few key ppl that's a thing. But we have so little members as it... Makes it pointlessishy. If a topic is 100% serious then delete stupid posts that aren't related.
  4. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    While we're on the topic of Black Ops and their seclusive membership, I'm going to call out Shooz for all of the posts deleted, threads closed, and members banned by him.

    He claims that Black Ops listens to the community and values their input, but pulls the "you're not a dev therefore you have no say" card multiple times. The way he has presented himself over the past few days has put a horrible example of what Black Ops is, and is most definitely not making me want to support this internal decision making mechanic for this forum.

    For big games and companies, it makes sense. As Scorp said, you have a billion people suggesting complete bullshit, so it becomes necessary to have insider people who know what they're talking about. The issue comes in when those people are inactive, out of date, and you end up with 5-7 people making these decisions.
    With such a small number of players giving input (easily less than 100), you don't have the luxury of doing what Blizzard says and leaving things the way they are and seeing how it pans out. First off, you don't have the professional analysis Blizzard has (examples already given).

    Second off, (now I'm repeating myself) you don't have an overwhelming amount of players giving bullshit feedback. When you say you're going to try to let things pan out, it doesn't come off as wisdom, but as disregard for anything we have to say.

    Lastly, you have an overwhelming amount of 150k+ xp players who barely even participate in forums. If you think that a player who has 150k+ xp, knows how to play, and does nm games only does deserve to have input on updates and such, then in no way should you be adopting the strategy of Blizzard to allow things to pan out, because you didn't have the wisdom to get proper advice for the update to begin with.

    Sorry this sort of ended up as a rant, but that doesn't degrade the value or reality of the points made. I like the idea of Black Ops, but as far as how this update went out, it seems to need a bit of revision in its protocol.

    EDIT: I forgot to throw this in and can't find a way to tweak it in with any finese, so I'll just state it here:
    Any member of Black Ops or Staff sets an example of what Black Ops and Staff are like, and should set an example of how other players should act or what standards they are held up to. People ranting/complaining isn't a reason to close a thread, you post saying to stop complaining and post formulated thoughts. People making posts about threads being locked and complaining about that isn't a reason to ban them, it's a time to explain yourself. Stop locking and deleting threads; it only aggravates the situation because you don't give the other person a choice. If anything, just tell them to stop their bad behavior and walk away, don't reply to the thread.

    If it really gets bad, then clean the thread up and say that you did so people don't rage about missing posts.
  5. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    I am not here to be your friend and I do not have to explain myself. If 150k players want their voice heard, they would have come to the forum. If they do not come to the forum and complain about recent changes. They can suck it up.

    Also, this topic is about the community opinion of black ops. So are you saying that without these 150k players black ops isn't set up properly or that it will not serve it's purpose in the best way? So how is it the fault of these people that no one new in the community wants to put the effort into NOTD as they did? Quit complaining about black ops making decisions behind your backs and step up to be a part of it.

    Your animosity is placed improperly, if you want someone or something to be angry at. Be angry at me, I will entertain you. People usually get mad when people have something they don't. In this case it feels as though everyone is mad because not everyone in Black Ops. Their positions have been earned in one way or another.

    I'll leave this post with a tool to help you all. I personally struggle with making this work a lot and you may see it from time to time as well. Here it is:

    "Know yourself and seek self improvement."

    A wise man told me this once and it can be applied to everything. The current Black Ops members noticed they wanted to do something more for NOTD with themselves. Why not join them?

    EDIT: Lastly, please leave your hatred and disliking of me out of this. If you have an issue with me you can bring it up wit me personally via PM or you are welcome to publicly open a thread to discuss your feelings and how they're affected by my actions.
  6. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member ops
    I don't exactly see how that's possible for a person.
  7. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    Your negativity and resentment for Black Ops and the process of selection are amazing! Please try to be a more half-full type of guy. You're really becoming a nuisance with how negative you are.

    If you care enough about the game and how it is progressing. Do something about it. Show that you want to help make the decisions they do. I challenge you all to become black ops members.
  8. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    I believe I have pm'ed kithrixx some ballance issue and posted some actual valid suggestions in my past.

    I've seen outstanding posts from others getting +1s but after a week everybody forgot about it or is put to "low priority" But then we get something like the recent shield "approved" by blackopses.

    No I'm a technical guy. If you studied science you'd know that the glass is always full. Atoms in the air that aren't visible to us doesn't mean they don't exist. Just oxygen itself is something.

    Doubt I care. If that's your opinion I'm fine with it. Not here to please you. Being negative or a non pleaser is fine as long as you aren't breaking the rules. Which is something you should get familiar with.
  9. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    Just because they don't want to take time out of their lives to, lets face it, join an elite (not elitist, just elite) group for decision making on a video game doesn't make their opinions and advice invalid. It's their experience and ability to put forward a structured argument that does.

    I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I don't see much information about Black Ops floating around anywhere so I can't find anything to back up/prove my own statements wrong before saying them. From my understanding of what Kith said, what Black Ops seems to be to me is an enclosed discussion group for only those who are willing to propose and critique ideas in a professional matter, not a decision making group. Based on this, I find 2 problems:

    Only 5-8 people discussed the recent update, which was no small one, and it was not only discussed, but jumped the gun before the idea was fully flushed out, not introduced to the public, and implemented in an extremely unbalanced fashion, as dictated in all of the recent threads suggestion nerfs to rating loss from early hits and reduction of shield hit ratios. Not only did this put a bad name on the originator of the idea (poor Kith), but it created huge controversy over where the hell this came from out of the blue, only having "sneak peaks" from Kith's NotD2 Sneak Peaks thread.

    Now, if my assumption that Black Ops is not a decision making group is wrong, and in fact they do have the final say, regardless of the public's opinion, on a topic or controversy, then I believe general consensus would agree that we need better experienced and more recently active players, on top of all the other Black Ops requirements.

    Damn you ninja posts... Scorp stole what I was about to say about joining Black Ops, and Shooz, why do you keep challenging us to "join Black Ops" when there is no tangible way to do so... Some qualifiers for a basis for us to get started on so we know what we're striving for, otherwise your proposal is completely worthless.
  10. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    If you studied NOTD you'd be in Black Ops. I'm done talking to you Nancy.
  11. Razgriz

    Razgriz New Member

    My mind feels abused reading all this... I remember Blaze talked to extifer about Blacks ops stuff a long while back.. but even then it seems almost impossible to become one even if you try to contribute and be professional.. (i know he wasn't anywhere near professional but i think he was trying... in his own way)
  12. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    What do you mean by "study" Shooz? And would you not consider making suggestions in the forums, discussing changes both potential and recent, showing that they want to make a difference in NOTD or at least have an influence?

    I'm more than a little confused about what you're defining as the necessary requirements of becoming a black ops member.
  13. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    I never defined necessary requirements to join Black Ops.
  14. Ginger Gerald

    Ginger Gerald Well-Known Member

    ...I'm aware that you have not explicitly stated the criteria required to become a Black Ops, that there is no check list through after the completion of you will become a Black Ops member without fail.

    The way you're talking about becoming a Black Ops member, is more or less like saying you are one, or you're not.

    You give a goal without saying how to obtain it. You talk about what it takes to become a Black Ops member without actually saying anything.

    Edit: You also did not define what you meant by "studying NOTD".
  15. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Shut up, Blaze.

    That said, everyone in this thread needs to calm down. This goes for Shooz especially, who I will put in time-out if it gets any further out of hand.

    We do listen, and we do value their input. I'm pretty sure what he was trying to get across was that you do not have the final or authoritative say. I'm gonna go ahead and be blunt - a lot of folks around here are acting mighty entitled saying what should and should not be done, disregarding the enormous amount of time, effort, and money that the developers have poured into the thing that they're currently entertaining themselves with.

    A single change was made in hase and all of the sudden I'm getting claims that we have "betrayed the userbase", which is one of the most ridiculous things I've read all day (and let's talk about I've gotten 30+ PMs about this issue alone).

    At this point all I've got to say to everyone is "chill the fuck out". We made a mistake. Oops. It happens. We're fixing it. Hopefully, it will not happen again.

    After some discussion with the infolk, there's no real reason to disband Black Ops. BO is there for a reason, and it's mostly to filter out the crap suggestions and the "it wuld b totally kool if u culd get a hmg as start wepon" (which I get almost on a daily basis).
  16. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    ... WHAT? That's not a good idea??? D;

    As far as Black Ops and recruitment for it goes, could we actually put forward a few more tangible requirements for joining, other then "being a cool guy?" Some people might be interested after this conversation (not gonna lie, it tickles my curiosity), but have no idea what the hell to do to even attempt at this goal.
  17. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    The funny (or not funny?) part about it is that sometimes people are joking when they tell me that and I can't fucking tell.

    As far as I'm aware, Extifer has already spoken to you about this. You can either admit that you're Blaze and eat your rep or you can delete your bank file that "you got from Blaze" and start over completely, because bank sharing is against the rules.
  18. brizingr5

    brizingr5 Member

    yes... it was a joke... lol
  19. Scorpione

    Scorpione Well-Known Member

    He's right. Also you aren't allowed to have more than 1 forum account. Either you remove the bank and save it for blaze, admit your blaze, or face cheater reputation ingame and have both accounts banned. Rules you've agreed to when signing up to both SC2 and NOTD forums. Words aren't enough proof. Anyone can use words.
  20. vexxenon

    vexxenon Well-Known Member

    There has been more than few valid points made for BO forum, and the BO members.

    As of right now this game existed for few years, I've not been around since the beginning and only jumped mid 2012. I liked the game, thus I continue to play it. I've seen some changes made for the good and some are just retarded. But the latest change to shield, as I've pointed out in previous posts, was a decision made by few in BO, while most other BO either quit or are inactive.

    You can claim that they have past game knowledge, however time change, with ever update, the meta game of NOTD changes by little, if someone are not up to day in NOTD (playing every day), then they will ultimately miss something. In that regard, if a BO made some decision and haven't played the game for a while, that should be void.
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