Armageddon Bomb Discussion

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Ability, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    That wont be the case if the talent is designed to select a direction in which to cast it such as the Flamethrowers Burst Fire.
    Pick your area, 2 second charge-up and KABLAM!!!
  2. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    For your casting time idea, I think the default behavior is that the unit doesn't move even when hit while casting (such as spectre's psionic lash) so there shouldn't be too much of a problem there. Reloading is slightly different than casting, during reloading, it is essentially equivalent to an involuntary hold fire, and units that don't have an attack and are attacked move away automatically.

    I think that some sort of anti air for the explosives demolition is useful, as all of his skills are ground based except for fv which will primarily affect laser rifle damage (something you shouldn't be using against most air anyway). The only problem with explosives is that mines and satchels are usually too stationary to hit air too effectively, meaning that either the air units drag them into your team or you have to place them really close for them to be effective. But I'll finish Peera's cloud before I think of a possible replacement.

    Also, I'm black ops too now :D.
  3. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    "Huzzah" is my word.
  4. marloelikeswaffles

    marloelikeswaffles New Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    Say cheese is *really* similar in function to satchel. To the extent that I really don't see a difference in how they would be used. I'd rather see a passive extending the function of his bread and butter abilities. For example -

    Shrapnel Mastery - Reduces FF damage of mines/satchel by 75%. Explosions from mines/satchel will hit air units (mines will not trigger from air, however). Monsters hit by satchel/mines will be stunned for 1 second. Fire Vulnerability now applies a 30% slow in addition to the vulnerability to explosives.

    But either way I'm kinda done with demo. The crowd calls Fire Wall weak and it's not. It's concept of a skill is unique, it just never did enough damage to satisfy Nite (Nothing except nuke does, btw). I don't understand their arguments. The replacement class (CE) will either make me stop playing apollo, stop playing demo, or stop playing NOTD. Peer, you're a good model designer, but I REALLY hate your class idea.

    There are a number of things that could be done to Fire Wall that would be FAR more useful than any of the ideas suggested.

    - Fire Wall could disable zombie's charge (buffing it specifically in -nm)
    - Fire Wall could reduce armor (hey, everything ELSE does)
    - Fire Wall could apply fire vulnerability if FV was maxed.
  5. QuantumMech

    QuantumMech Well-Known Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    Ok, luckily during the summer I had forethought enough to save my demolitions rework, and it just might satisfy nite AND marloe. here is what I had for the ult:

    Dirty Bomb
    Remembering the scare tactics of early 21st century terrorists the demolition marine uses the chemicals that have spilled on the moon to make a new explosive.

    Combination of toxic cloud of gas and explosion. Costs 30 energy with a 7 second cool down

    Deals 300 initial damage (X2 against structure and massive) and leaves a chemical cloud that deals 35 damage per second in a radius of 6 for 40 seconds (deals 150 Tk damage on initial and 25 damage per second) has chance to poison ANYTHING that walks through it and has a 40% slow.

    This is like firewall and seems more appropriate for an EXPLOSIVES demolition man.

    This is a preliminary idea, so any comments are welcomed, especially constructive ones. This is for the sole purpose of giving explode demo a place besides annoyance.


    Again that is a hopefully on satisfying them both.
  6. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    Main difference between Say Cheese! and Satchel, with Say Cheese! you will have a higher chance of hitting what you wanted to in the first place without having to watch the target lazily making its way out of the blast radius BECAUSE your going to be there drawing their attention.

    "Hey there, come and see what I got."
    "woouuaaoo. . ."
    "Thats right, a bit closer"
    "Whhhaaaaa?"
    "SAY CHEESE!"
    KABLAM!!

    And should they live, depending on the cooldown that is going to be decided for the talent you can gear up another one while they remained stunned for the duration.
  7. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    I'd go for all of these being added to FireWall actually + an added burning/HP degen effect similar to the napalm of doom from a flamer's death. :p

    Or lets make it even more wallish and give an even bigger slow to targets moving through it.
  8. DrawingDead

    DrawingDead Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    Why not give demo a thermite bomb or something? Give it a low AOEwith super high damage. Make it more target specific vs napalm's wide AOE.
    [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdCsbZf1_Ng[/video]
  9. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    Ideally I'd like to see the tier three be something that plays nice with the tree.

    Take for example, the Order Flamethrower. The Order Flamethrower is designed in such a way that almost every skill chains off every other skill it has. And the tier three isn't just an AoE Bomb but a valuable part of the Anti-Boss skill chain. Or on the other hand, the Combat Rifleman, where Bloodlust doesn't just improve his weapon based tier 1 effectiveness, but also his energy based tier 2 effectiveness.

    You got Area Denial in mine fields vs weaker enemies. You have Anti-Massive Enemy/Hordes in Satchel. Got damage buffing in Fire Vulnerability. Anti Boss might be the right way to go.

    And maybe it's just the mood I'm in or how my fevered mind is working... but if it IS something like Thermite... I'd love to see it be something like this:

    Deals X Damage Per Second, Lowers Armor by Y, Increases movespeed by 33%, while under the effect of this skill enemies are consumed by flames and love their aggressive behavior as they run around desperately trying to get the flames out.

    e.g.:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apTin54hH4w
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    I'm still rather partial to my sticky bomb idea as it would fit well into EC where bosses are often surrounded by lower enemies. It is also useful for mobs but not necessarily as energy efficient.

    Think of it as a buffed up volatile injection with minor vision added on top and the choice to detonate. Much longer cooldown and cost of course.
  11. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    For the thermite idea, I think that some sort of non single target effect might be applied (with the friendly fire that is typical of explosives demolitions)

    Thermite

    Burns target unit for X damage per second, debuffing armor by Y, and possibly increasing speed by a certain amount. The unit leaves behind a burning trail that damages for Z a second with 50% ff damage.

    This way, it could still be a bit of crowd control like fire wall, but single target as well, and removes some of the boss killing potential because friendlies can be damaged more easily during boss fights. But I'm no expert at creating these abilities, so it might not work as well as I'm imagining it right now.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    Well, since he's slated for replacement in Apollo Security Team, we only really need to consider Easy Company situations. The trail of fire could have the following effects:

    Random Agron/Slasher: During holdouts this is just pure win. Could get more damage per cast than out of firewall as enemy mobs tend to follow in the wake of these units, and typically you only engage them during holdouts. Just consider how much it could say, soften up the Agron Train during the Airlock if cast on the lead Agron.

    Tartar Sauce: Not too keen on something that would make flanking behind him like you're supposed to a little more dicey. Also could make it harder for the designated kiter to grab his attention without getting burned himself.

    Ellie: Flying, high speed... depending on duration the battle zone could become some Rorschach mess of fire.

    Erebos (Mark I or Mark II): No real problems. Would make more traditional tanking of him a bit harder, even for Fort Demos depending on how the flames spawned.

    Queeny: Again, could make tanking her harder depending on how the flames spawned (If it was always in a space she just moved out of, or if it spawned right on top of her all the time). And I just have a bad vision of someone putting the Thermite on her, she decides to Frenzy and Flee, and runs right over the top of the team spreading flaming death. Particularly if it is one of the strange circumstances where due to overwhelming DPS, she shrieks then runs right over a stunned team.

    Just my first thoughts on it.
  13. Nicarco
    • Warden
    • Donator

    Nicarco Warden

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    And that's why I said it would make fighting bosses harder, while fighting hordes are easier with the ability (sort of like firewall, basically useless on bosses, but good at softening up hordes).
  14. marloelikeswaffles

    marloelikeswaffles New Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    It's weird hearing "Demo skills have no synergy right now" and "Satchel is just dodged, when Cheese wouldn't be."

    Satchel has a 5 second timer from deployment to explosion. Yes, I'll concede that it takes effort to place those effectively, but I do NOT see how a skill that requires the user to be STATIONARY for 2 seconds would be a vast improvement. At least with satchels you only to be stationary for the .3 second animation and can use other skills (like sap) to ensure proper detonation.

    The synergy thing also confuses me. Firewall sets up better satchels (no seriously try it sometime - 1-2 firewalls is just enough slow to land satchels consistently on agrons) while mines are probably the best way to proactively defend space you "shouldn't" firewall. Fire Vulnerability is quite simply the most synergistic skill in game - it works in concert with EACH one of the demo's skills, not to mention all the skills of other classes it can be used with.

    Pulling Quantum's suggested rework into this thread, I would sooner see create mines and mines combined, satchel damage reduced and moved to T1, AND a T2 skill replacing satchel being a single target "sticky bomb" as also being a balanced solution.

    Firewall is better than people give it credit for, capable of 270/sec on a tanked or otherwise slowed (sear + fwall is very effective) boss. I would like to see skills reworked to make them "safer" to use in teamplay, however.
  15. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    Never had the "Dodged" problem with Satchel. In fact I like it's timer as it makes it a very Kite Friendly skill. Throw it in front of me. Run through the Area while it's counting down, cleared everything off my ass.

    The synergy thing is admittedly possibly just a personal preference for me. If you're using Mines you don't necessarily want to use the Satchel, as it'll clear your mines. If you're using Satchels you probably don't want to use Firewall due to the huge energy drain that combo can produce (And with good timing like what we expect Arty FOs to use I don't see much need for the Firewall Slow), and if you're using Firewall you probably won't waste energy on Mines since anything a mine could kill, a Firewall could kill more efficiently.

    Not saying the synergy doesn't exist. But it's kinda like SubComm for me. You have good skills, and they kinda play nice together in limited use. I do like the SubComm, don't get me wrong. Just the only real way the skills combo up is say, Mindmeld a high value target, HSes so the Mindjacked will inflict extra damage (As well as your team) and take advantage of splash attacks as they ball up around the Mindjacked one, then KMS it when Mindmeld expires.

    *shrug* I LIKE the explosives demo. I have fun playing it. Maybe it's just the skill ceiling where I'm at it just kinda feels like in any situation it's "FV then... what one skill do I want to use to handle this problem?" And oftentimes I just feel ill equipped to handle stuff. Particularly when faster enemies pop up and I see them sail through the Firewall without even taking a single hit. Gargoyles (Thus why I thought it didn't hit air for the longest time, they sail through before a damage tick even happens), and Zoombies in particular, anytime creep is a factor I even catch Stalkers, Devourers, Ghouls and other enemies sailing through without getting hit. Can't imagine how bad it'd get on Nightmare with Charging enemies.
  16. marloelikeswaffles

    marloelikeswaffles New Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    In -nm firewall has to be used in a situation where charges won't trigger (either outranging the charge or using a ledge/elevation to prevent line of sight) for firewall to work effectively. Sap is explo demo's only real option for "surprise i'm a devo/zoombie/stalker/garg and i'm up in your shit" and while the cooldown is "balanced" for the fort demo the explo does NOT have an answer to unexpected close range engagement.
  17. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    Is it just me or do the suggestions involving bombs sticking to targets remind me of the Flamethrower's Inferno? :)

    I mean if that were the case, then why not just go with the old suggestion of switching Inferno with the Demolition's Firewall?

    Synergy-wise, it's very easy to see how Inferno would jive with Fire Vulnerability

    While Firewall (admit it, it's a Flamethrower themed talent) will probably help the class with keeping up BURN! on a target by placing the wall of slow and flame in strategic positions.

    Switching my vote from +1 to Marloe's Buff the Firewall suggestion to

    Buff it then switch with Inferno.

    It's also an answer to the demo's problem with unexpected close range engagements. XD
  18. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    I admit I don't like the idea of trading Inferno and Firewall. The supposed gain that BURN! would gain from Firewall's slow is nowhere near the combo talent chaining goodness that comes with Inferno, Burst Fire, and Frenzy. I mean I know from when I was writing my guide and testing things out that most people consider Inferno a stand alone talent on the Flamethrower's Pyro Tree. Just fire and forget. And that it completely eclipses and replaces Burst Fire. But it's not really the case. It's Inferno to start the heavy stuff burning, Burst Fire to finish them off, trigger explosions, and clear out a breech, then Frenzy being powered up so you can rush in, get some mk-3 Flamethrower Micro in. Firewall on a Pyro Flamethrower has very little to offer. It closes off an area making it harder to Mk-3 Flamethrower Micro (As if Alpha Company needs more area denial...), the only talent it can really play nicely with is MAYBE Burn!. And I'm not even prepared to really say that it would. It'd be dependent on laying a firewall directly on the path of a Titan/Boss/Brainbug or other BURN! worthy enemy (Requiring you to basically be at a right angle to the enemy in question which is NOT where a Pyro Flamethrower should be) and then having enough time to ramp it up to make it worth it.

    Putting Inferno on the Explosives demo might be the right idea. But Firewall on the Pyro Flamethrower I can definitely say would be the wrong idea.
  19. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    People still use Frenzy???

    I kid, I kid. :p
    It's amazing with shotguns

    My personal observation though is that, the fire and forget with Inferno (and completely forgetting about Burst Fire) works much better in NM as compared to using said combo.

    All the sprinters mess up a Pyro trying to Burst Fire or use his flamethrower. Not to mention the hefty energy cost of said combo. And then the fact that stopping burn to use B-fire/Inferno interrupts its damage buildup.

    But we digress, this isn't a Flamethrower thread.

    +1 more vote to demo getting the Inferno then eh? Thanks for the support :D
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    RE: [Ideas Needed] Demo's Wall of Fire Replacement

    I actually want to test it in Nightmare. However I was never able to get a shot. The two Nightmare Alpha Company games I was able to get while compiling that guide only had one person willing to play the Flamethrower (Me, of course. No one else gives it the love), and there was so much rage over the normal mode games where I went Pyro as the only Flamethrower (In order to test ideas), that I wasn't going to push my luck with their patience in a Nightmare Game.

    Edit: Anyway, yeah. No problem with Inferno on the Demolitions. Though we'd need a new Pyro tier 3. And definitely NOT Firewall. Unless Firewall was changed in some way to be wholly unrecognizable as the talent it is right now.

Share This Page