Apollo Security Team Discussion

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Reaper, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Or for Legion of Merit the colonists that come running at you after the Armory is triggered aren't all bad and you can save some of them.
  2. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    The damage dealt by a maximized marksman should have been addressed by now or has it not? Wasn't there proposals to make the % damage from OSOK no longer be affected by any of the buffs?

    That said, I am now really curious as to how that Apollo game with Lacus' team went. How was the 180k hp not whittled down fast enough? Because usually he does fall really fast. And as AP once described it, the boss is "trivialized"

    Or was the taking down of Hades difficult not because of his HP, but because

    at those inordinately high SR levels, the boss tends to spawn forests of spine crawlers which can insta kill the nearest non-tank person (akin to banes spawning under you) without a grace period,

    and spawns 3-4 blackholes at a time effectively carpeting the battle field with a 10 radius killzone w/o pockets of safety?
  3. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    A few things

    1) OSOK was indeed nerfed considerably in 2 ways, the cooldown was increased to 4 seconds which is a 40% drop in DPS, then the % damage was lowered from 1.5/2.0 -> 1.2/1.5, another 20/25% drop in DPS, overall result is OSOK DPS was basically cut in half.

    2) Hades BASE HP was increased by 25k, which then multiple scaled by difficulty, added anywhere from 35-50k to round 1. Round 1 usually only had at most 130-150k, now it is way more, more time for Hades abilities to do their damage.

    3) 2200 and 2400 (I'll double check) are cutoffs for increased difficulty, in terms of spawn rates and HP. You hit 2400, stuff goes nuts fast (it is linear scaling but that is the tipping point)
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    And Marksman will be getting the full rework treatment eventually-ish to tone down his damage for OSOK even more.
  5. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    - Infected ailment added. Unit will die and turn into a zombie within 1-3 minutes. This ailment will mainly affect civilians/NPCs. Can be cured with Anti-Venom.

    Added this new ailment more for an ambience/storyline mechanic. Allows players to see more civilians/NPCs getting infected. We may scatter out more civilians in Sec Team. The zombie that spawns our is just a regular zombie.

    AP: This ailment can also be modified (duration reduced mainly) to turn most scripted civilian turning into zombie effects from trigger into data. They are all currently trigger-based.
  6. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Will this affect say EC colonist ship rescue?

    For the ailment, I'm not sure how easy it is to do that its invisible or visible only to say medic?
  7. Ability
    • Development Team
    • NOTD Creator

    Ability NOTD Creator

    It won't affect those colonists atm. Maybe a rare chance of it happening in NM games.

    Ailment is visible to all players. Am fine with it being that way. There won't be any visual representation of the ailment apart from the buff icon.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Another replay from Niktos:
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/ykj3xf

    Haven't checked SR but judging from those involves should be around 2100 "only"

    Says Hades2 died in under 10 secs and suggests some sort of damage cap per hit, because just adding more HP to stuff will just lead to more "abuse" of OSOK while additing a damage cap per hit encourages more teamplay on dps from every player as opposed to stacking everything on 1.


    I tend to agree with the sentiment. Does this make skills like OSOK a bit weaker? Yes. Would it make the game more involving for all players? Probably yes too. The damage cap would be around say 6000 per hit and reduce boss HP to say 100k at 2400 SR.
  9. Lyanden

    Lyanden Well-Known Member

    We may want to wait though if the concentration = assassination tree thing pushes through which (is apparently designed to) limit the current osok
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I'm doubtful it will to be honest.
    Crits add 50% to osok. Making concentration work with OSOK = up to 60%. EVen if it didn't, OSOK doing 20-30k damage per shot is insane (that's factoring all buffs and debuffs).
  11. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Hades form 2 should get a Mana Break or Energy Combustion type talent. Every 1 point of energy that is spent deals 2 points of damage to the user. :cool: (jks) That'll silence alot of Assassination Marksmans.... Silence...

    Mmmm...

    Or hows about Hades has something that only allows you to use a talent and then it gets greyed out until you use a different talent and then that gets greyed out freeing the previous talent.
  12. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Something less "mystical" sounding Reaper, and something more Sci-Fi sounding? Get something like "Adaptation". Every time Hades is hit by a spell/special ability/talent the next use of that spell/special ability/talent is now 25% less effective (Stacks).

    So first OSOK gets it's 100% damage and does some 10k. Second takes only 7.5k, third takes 5.87 K, etc.

    This also applies to things like Repulse. First stun is full duration, next is 25% less duration, next is 25% less duration, etc.

    My reasoning:

    1: This can short circuit the whole "one guy does all the work" issue. If they do count on just one man he'll be decidedly less effective until eventually he might as well be shooting blanks at Hades.

    2: It encourages a Kitchen Sink approach where players will use all their talents and means on Hades only because relying on just one thing (Like constantly force pushing) will become useless. Meaning they have to plan their skill resources better and really choose when they want to use something instead of mindless "As soon as it's cooled down" spam.

    3: It will force a little more team diversity on Hades Mark II and make players consider what they might want on the team other than the three/four "core" classes necessary to beat the game and thus the rest of the team doesn't feel like mostly useless lumps just along for the ride.

    4: It'll make pure weapon DPS like Combat Riflemen, Mod Tech, Pistolwhipper PF, etc, more useful at the tail end of the fight than the current Spike and Gimmick Users. Which I think is interesting because I don't typically see those classes being chosen.
  13. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Interesting idea, but realistically all what will happen is you swap AMM for SMM, buff him to heaven and let him unload stingers or barrett shot (Probably barret because damage/ammo ratio is better.

    Fundamentally, Apollo is all about gimmick. You have Marksman being your primary DPS, because you have no other DPS classes of note with burst. Crofl is good as supplementary but realistically I'd want another SMM, one packing Barret, other wielding stinger. Pistol, even on a Gunslinger, is woefully less dps then a SMM. SMM beats out Combat Rifleman because although technically the SMM is limited by energy, that limit usually isn't reached until the very end of the Hades battle, so nearly the entire time he has +300% attack speed and +50% damage (with crits being a wash, both Crofl/SMM will have them by Hades), which easily outstrips the Crofl +80% attack speed and 50% damage. And this ignores the upfront burst SMM has with concentration.

    Virtually everything in Apollo boils down to disable until MM kills it with massive burst damage. Only real way I see around this is buff some class, ANY class, DPS so you are not forced to choose the same exact class for DPS. EC is fun because you got a wide selection of DPS, same in Alpha. Apollo... it is not an option, no MM = GG over 2200 SQ. You simply will not have the DPS to win.

    I would LOVE to be proven wrong, but I strongly suspect no team can manage to do a NM hades on any decent SQ without a marksman (or randoming into a out of story DPS class).
  14. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    We have done 2k+ sr hades before without MM (because he died). Think random was demo. Had 2 techs, rec, rifle, med, chem, demo
  15. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Demo tank (IMO) makes a heck of a difference, because with KA he can easily directly tank Hades. The Looks, TTD stuns, and the taunting make for some amazing crowd control.

    If I randomed Demo in Apollo sec, I would be laughing my way to easy win, Look alone will make Hades way easier (look form 1, let spines rip it apart for you, Look anything around hades during form 2, like an agron, let him waste a epic amount of time while you kill him).
  16. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    Deff have won w/out mm many times. Now this is before the recent 80k Hades 1 and Devastator changes. There is plenty of DPS to be had with Rifle, PO, Tech, and the rest of the team as long as you have people that know what they are doing and the right guns, I’m confident it’s still winnable, albeit harder.
  17. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Yeah Other Arc, definitely a possibility on SubMM. Though a SubMM would also probably be called upon to do Dome Sealing, which would drain his energy right before the Hades fight. Oh well, it's a thought, and SubMMs don't rape bosses nearly as hard as AssMMs do, so the variety would be nice and it could help bosses last just a little bit longer.
  18. Reaper

    Reaper Moderator/The Crimsonrine

    Man, lets just throw in a mechanic that makes him invulnerable to all forms of damage and you have to put in the effort to make him vulnerable to a set amount of damage then it wont matter what classes you have because mainly when the Marksman or tanky class kick the bucket its either game over or the longest kite fight in history. Now you would be able to win with a Medic and Psi Ops left alive.

    There is no skill requirement to the Hades fight. None. You may argue with me but for me it is simply damage over time and keep Hades distracted. Nothing fancy.

    And the plain idea of a bullet being able to destroy the Dark One which is a culmination of the meanest infested organic matter infused with metal into its structure is absurd. That guy should be like a dragon with the hardest scales, if you don't get rid of them you wont get rid of him.
  19. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Currently the real Nazara seems to stay back a fair bit while the clones slowly move towards players. Maybe it can be made a tad more aggressive at pursuing?
    Also would feel a very slight ms buff on Nazara wouldn't hurt.

    HAL needs to accelerate on sprints again.

    Apop seems very easily controlled at present even when our main dps forgot to get OW and only 6 people had OW at the end of the fight. Not sure how to address without knowing its stats (unclickable)

    Post HAL attack wave seemed not very threatening at all, could use a few Hulks to tank for Slashers and add a few blindlings and ghouls.

    Dome waves after Athena are extremely easy at present. Most people didn't bother manually reloading and no real micro of thors either. Domes stopping spawn at -2 rating also seemed a bit weak compared to how it used to be, but probably allows teams with less optimal setups to make it. Would maybe tie Domes not spawning to generators all being turned on and that somehow semi sealing them?

    Not sure why, but Hades 2 died a lot faster than Hades 1 even though we used the same weaponry and skills. The HP difference is quite small relatively speaking. Maybe VRL doesn't affect Hades 1? (didnt check)
  20. Thermidor

    Thermidor Well-Known Member

    Just curious, anyone know why is Apop unselectable? It just seems very unnecessary to make him unselectable unlike other bosses.

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