Alpha storyline zombie kill triggers

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by spartanhija, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    I hope Im not posting this thread in the wrong section, and if I am I appologize.

    The issue Id like to adress is when entering the lab, all enemies are killed I guess so the team isnt overwhelmed during chronus (ill say majority, not all enemies).

    What I was wondering is why in the world is an engineers mced units also destroyed? In order to even get your final as engi by labs you have to put in some work, so having mcs (besides minis, fests,bbq and sunkens) die doesnt make much sense to me.

    Can anyone explain if thats a glitch or in there for a reason?
    And if theres a reason explain why?

    Thanks for your time
  2. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    As you noted, spawns can be an issus. By the team enters labs on NM, Agrons and normal zombies are spawning all over. Since agrons are slow moving, they will spawn on the edges of the map, and suddenly you could have 4 agrons show up in the middle of the Cronus battle, not to mention the larva that will spawn from them.

    The other reason is the abuse of MC. In ages past, because of the difficulty of Cronus himself, and of the Lab sequence, and also because shengs Mini's were present for Cronus battle and tended to die stupidly to Cronus Laser Bloom, teams would park outside lab and wait for Engineer to MC every last mini. Moreover, teams could also assemble an Agron Army for labs. You then could use the Agrons to simply tank Cronus, then tank all the lab spawns, making the entire encounter a joke.

    TLDR, people wanted to win, wasn't easy, so MC was (ab)used to get a massive advantage, you either used it and won, or didn't and wiped.
  3. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    I understand the part about not being swarmed, but do you mind if we speculate for a min about the mc stuff?

    If a team is taking the time to sit there and mc a bunch of units, that of course is going to waste time for a speed win, but also if destroying the mced units is the answer wouldnt it be plausible to say the engy isnt wanted? I noticed it seemed to destroy units before and AFTER the lab sequence when gas starts, which also makes no sense to me. If this is the case why not replace engi with another unit or buff chronus dmg vs agrons?

    Im not trying to be rude or argue, but id like to understand and maybe come up with a better solution.
    Why not do what ivax does to agrons with chronus normal attack? That way if they try to agron tank chronus he buttrapes them, and engi isnt rendered semi useless as a result?

    What do you think?
    One other thing i forgot to mention, is if you mc shengs entire squad, you dramtically lower the dps of it.
    Sure after you leave labs, whatever is alive is extra, but for during labs it makes it a bit more difficult to dps all the enemies without a well balanced team.
  4. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    You dramatically lower their DPS, but you get player interaction over Mini AI, which makes them survive WAY longer.
  5. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    True, although as far as the minis go they are mc able and can stay during chronus.
    Im more concerned with other things that were mced, and hence taking even longer if you are going to sit there mcing minis and agrons.
    Really though, what if you just add a idk 250+ dmg to massive on chronus (splash of course) so ppl cant use them to tank him? Then it doesnt render engis skill literally useless (his t3 btw). Its similarily used on ivax about 15 min after.
  6. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Could explore that possibility.

    The other reason minis are killed at end of lab is that one can use the lab time to mass MC most of them during the lab sequence. Also the gas sequence was rewritten lore wise as to kill off the minis.

    The logic is that in early Alpha, you are VERY much dependent on minis firepower to stand against the mobs. Although later aspects of the lab sequence (Hulks) make minis less effective, they still serve as very effective chump blockers and distractions. Moreover their added firepower can make a sizable difference in later bosses (however I will acknowledge that this was before a number of class buffs OSOK).

    The methodology and metagame if you will of Alpha has indeed changed, making the mini army less potent and needed.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I never really considered the ramifications of it myself. Yes, the Mindjacking could be useful at various points in Alpha Company, but even if you fixed the Cromo bit there's still a lot of parts which just ruin the day of any attempt to get the full menagerie going, like the gas, Cerb fight, IVAX fight, and Perses. So even if Cromo didn't wipe them out, you'd probably lose them soon after anyway and never really get those effective groups of mindjacked doom up and rolling.

    It just struck me as not really being a good storyline for a Field Engineer. Not really good for a Combat Engineer either but slightly favoring it just because it was the DPS tree. The best contribution/reason I've seen to have a Field Engineer for a long time in Alpha was due to using Towers to seal off the Fort during early holdouts, and the regen due to Battery. Plasma Satchels and Penetrate on the Probe not being bad either. Basically everything BUT their tier 3.

    And as I said, I just don't know if changing the Cromo mechanic there will necessarily fix that. So much of Alpha Company is just not Menagerie building friendly.
  8. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    It mainly comes down to... what do you use the zoo for? Any sizable zoo can not tank ambient spawns, because they come so often and is what you built your zoo out of usually. They can't tank IVAX, he rolls over them (by design). Perses is untanakable by anything because of his AI and being totally random. Also, the DPS a zoo has is minimal because Alpha is the Doom/Boom/DPS story, Arty FO can lay waste to the equivalent of most zoos in seconds, same goes for either flamer T3. Cronus also can not be actually directly tank due to his creep effect.

    Alpha pretty much is positional play with massive damage spells to back it up. Do bad positioning on ANY boss, and the promptly kick your ass (Demeter with vision, although broken, Cronus with creep/laser, Cerb with vision of medic and his invuln stage, IVAX satchels/cannons/missiles, and perses with Firewaves/Shields).
  9. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    I understand why you guys are saying the kill trigger is in place and needed, but I do think if thats the case engi shouldnt the the character for the story line as it is unfair to him and his t3.

    I agree with arctur that his towers are pretty usefull and other buffs/debuffs but if you cant use your t3 (regardless of what class you are t3 is usually the most coveted and usefull, further defining the character) then whats the point of having it?

    The engis t1 and t2 skills are great but they only lead up to being supportive of the t3, and the way this is set up forces players to mc only minis which keeps them around for chronus battle anyways.

    Something to consider is making minis un mc-able (like FOs minis) amd removing the kill trigger. That way it stays withing the realm of the "lore" and lets engis t3 be worth something still.

    Also if chronus is buffed to extra dmg to ags, then they have to wait outside and let team kill chron, i dont see a problem with that. Like artur said even after they have a good chance of dying (gas, cerb) but at least they also have the chance to help in labs, gas, cerb, and beyond if your able to save them.
    It just makes no sense punishing the engy for choosing engy, a class alot of ppl dislike playing as is.
  10. Eagle 11

    Eagle 11 Well-Known Member

    So since when you consider effective usage of mc an abuse ?
    If you see a problem in minis getting mc'ed then specifically exclude them,why punishing the engineer ?
  11. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well Spartanhinja, I mean that's just the way it goes. It's like Survival Rifle in Apollo Security Company. Underwhelming. Even Repulse is pretty much useless in there as you typically are in holdouts where things cannot or should not get in Repulsing range (Especially when you have the Devastators). Inception on the Sex Ops, usually fucks up stuff in Alpha Company and can wipe out the team if used on bosses (seriously, been there), and probably half a dozen other examples I can think of. It's just that not all things can be optimal at all times. Sometimes they even suck. Sometimes they are even detrimental to your team. I can understand your point to an extent. But you can also just say "Hey, listen... Field Engineeer is for Easy Company and Combat Engineer is for Alpha Company". And that's also perfectly valid as you often take that stance with Medics (Aid for Easy, Nano for Alpha), Riflemen (Survival for Easy, Combat always for Alpha), and Marksman (Sub can be more effective in Easy Company, Assassin is clearly more effective in Alpha Company).
  12. spartanhija

    spartanhija Member

    Thanks I appreciate your input.
  13. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    Pretty much this. By having 2 trees, there will be clear situations where one tree is favored over another. In this case, Combat Engineer is far superior in alpha, he provide major added DPS, and BHS stunlock = godlike, lets you practically laugh at a fair number of things (Mobs during Perses, Mobs before perses, mobs at fort, mobs in general really).

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