about chemical plating [chemical expert]

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Dante., May 3, 2012.

  1. Dante.

    Dante. New Member

    correct me if im wrong, but i think that this skill dont work against ranged units, so, since most of the apollo bosses are ranged but apoptosis and hephasteus, this skill just gets unuseful, cuz most zombies that hit tanker or any other unit inside the chems aura, will die in like 3 secs, the venom doesnt realy have time to do real damage

    the solution, if there will be a change, i think it would be make it work against ranged units.
    or
    make it be a projectile that will effect an ally, and all units that hit him will get venomed

    what the rest of the chems users think =]
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well, part of the reason it is what it is, is because the Chemist needed a passive skill to avoid Command Card Overcrowding. So the latter wouldn't work out.

    It is a bit of a lame duck in that Apollo Security is geared towards not getting hit after all. It's about pushing and controlling aggro. The Tech doesn't really seem to do a lot of FaceTanking other than Hades Mark II. ANd because of Hades's AoE DOOM attack that doesn't really work out.
  3. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    What we need to do... is find a way to take care of this issue of a nearly useless talent. As I type this, I wonder what would happen if the chem passively venomed with his shots. We are always talking about synergy, and other than energy transfer and chemical plating (which is hardly effective venom stackers in apollo) the bonus damage of VRL goes unused.

    What I propose as a swap is instead of chemical plating, we have Venomous Rounds (or what have you) They would work in cost like that of anticipation. Specifics may vary, but I like the idea of how anticipation works, and would fit well here. level 1 venomous rounds would stack once, gain one every X seconds. No damage bonus (and for future reference, I am not interested in a damage bonus on any of the three, that is what VRL is for). Level two would increase the stack per shot to 2, and level three would either stack 3 or 4, depending on how balance would be.

    This would synergise well with chem because if he is pure support chem, it would complement the fact he is not dps, and only would need to shoot to put venom on enemies (penance could be used on other people). These acid rounds would help slow enemies, and maximise the effect of VRL.

    It would also synergise with the desolator chem because he could shoot up a boss instead of running headlong with his desloation spray, and would stack faster than his contamination AoE. This is for late game although.

    I don't always have ideas I percieve as good, but when I do, I post them.


    And then I put a meme.
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    If I recall correctly, what Peera original had was an innate bonus to the Chemist where he dealt something like 10% extra damage and a Venom stack with every weapon attack. So it's not so far out of left field or anything.
  5. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    I would trade 10% extra damage for more venom or perhaps make the 10% extra damage only work on already venomed targets. As I posted earlier, support chem is not a dps class. While there can easily be debate about what non-dps can and cannot do, generally, dmg buffs generally do not fit with the support role. The idea that the chem could essentially pour venom on every single zombie he touches (imagine if he had a HMG) perfectly passively (keeping in mind they do have a limit) seems to be a bit over the top to me.

    It is better than chemical plating at least
  6. Mick

    Mick New Member

    What if instead of ALL weapons, we chose one which Chem can upgrade or change with +poison dmg. Say, when you equip flamer (and only flamer) it instead becomes Caustic Spray. Change flames to green, apply poison to all hit. This limits his HMG LOLWTF potential, but gives him the ability to support the team by poison spraying any mobs that get too close, killing or helping to kill them before they get too many hits in on your allies. Since Flamethrower class isn't in Apollo, I don't think we'd be stepping on any other class' toes either.
  7. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    You still run into the same issue as Chemical Plating. Apollo Sec Team is loaded with enemies whose range exceeds that of the flamethrower. The issue here isn't so much function as it is practicality.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Just make it work vs ranged and that's it, no?

    Heck spiked armor works vs ranged, why shouldn't this.
  9. Mick

    Mick New Member

    M45 with Biological Rounds then? Chem must select key targets to poison, but this limits the number of shots/targets you can damage. You'll have the range, but still lack the damage output, so you're more supporting the team by weakening high priority targets.

    I think of Chem Expert as a heavily armored Nicholas Cage in The Rock, so I don't think precision poisoning fucks with his role too much.

    Ghost, I think the issue they brought up with the Spiked Armor approach was that in Apollo you're not really supposed to tank/get hit.
  10. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    Chem Plating works on shield hits too and Chem has quite a large pool of shields.
    It also works on allies within the radius.

    Granted it might not be overly useful, but consider that if it did work vs ranged and the damage being higher than that of spkes armor (+venom), it would actually be quite viable to use XS4 and go in as a team shield vs infested marines who would die very quickly by firing at you.

    If anything, it is a safety net so that if you get ambushed or attacked by infested marines, it won't be for long and you contribute towards your team as the support class that right side Chem is in unique ways.
  11. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    The concern for me isn't Ranged, it's Applicability.

    What honest, gets tanked in Apollo Security Team:

    Hephaestus: But if your team isn't triggering rampages (And it shouldn't if you are close enough to get Chemical Plating buffs), he goes down like a potato anyway.
    Seth: Mech, immune to ailments.
    Nazara: Mech, immune to ailments.
    Apoptosis: I'm betting because of his immortality protocol that he's immune to it anyway, not because he's Ranged. Because those little chemicals poisoning him aren't seeping blood or something.
    Hades: Because of his high power AoE basic attack, and the fact that the Chemist has about zero Tankery potential, you can't really use it to support the Technician as he grips and rips with the Crowbar.

    Beyond those cases there just isn't really tanking. More like Kiting, or Force Pushing, or various types of Stunlocking, or Spell Damage Doom Smiting.
  12. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    From what i hear, I still like the idea of anticipation style venom rounds. with proper management, you could fully stack any unit (mostly the bio bosses) with decent speed and safety for the chem. If one did not manage the venom, then it would lack usefulness, but it seems more manageable than an aoe skill, tank grade passive.
  13. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    Won't giving a class +venom on every attack be ridiculously overpowered? It will become like a Tier1 Nano Sear, granting damage over time and a slow in one passive skill.

    Maybe if it were chance based, it would be better. Just make it a crit strike clone, except with venom stacks instead of damage.
  14. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    I'm not entirely certain that it would be that powerful myself.

    I mean, yes, you'll say "look how fast HP boils away with 20 stacks" or something. And it does. Base rate for venom is what, .6 per second? So it's not a huge penalty itself. You likely won't notice it. With 8 Marines, Mears, Bots, Red Eyes Black Dragons, Drones, etc, all hammering on targets you probably wouldn't notice it most game. Agrons would be the only thing fat enough to really get a chance to notice it. Well Agrons and Brain Bugs on the Non-Heroic level. As is we don't put things like preventing stacking Open Wounds on Heroics. Granted you can say it's balanced by requiring a turret that you place with Energy I suppose, or saying that Open Wounds don't slow targets (though they do drain more HP).

    It's hard for me to actually conceptualize what it would do in real terms. But against most enemies you probably won't even notice it, based on my experience with Venom stacks on enemies via Exhaust. It helps a bit but it's not a great reaper of enemies (Least until I also cripple, blind, and open wound them).
  15. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    While it's true that other abilities can cause stacks, these abilities generally have cooldowns. Venom on every shot, combined with a quick firing weapon like a SMG, would become a super AOE slow if enemies are not killed outright. It's not the pure damage that worries me, but the huge decrease in movement speed that 20 stacks of venom cause. Given that venom takes a long time to disappear, once a boss or other high-profile target has 20 stacks, it will be for all intents and purposes permanently slowed by a huge amount. All this from a zero cooldown zero cost passive.

    The other side of Chemical Expert can cause 20 stacks, but slowly and with some risk. The FF potential of both his Tier1s is very high, and the spray skill can only be used at very short range. If a single passive can cause more venom stacks a lot faster and easier than these 2 skills, it will become very unbalanced.
  16. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Just saying I don't think that the SMG situation would really happen. Least not as you said it. Because things would die anyway before you see any serious decrease in speed when talking about waves. Unless.... I dunno... you're talking about a situation where you are fighting waves of Hulks and your team are all Gauss Rifle and SMG users. Bosses would be the exception. Considering it would be passive you could just have a "Does not work on Heroics" tag to it. But his home is in the Security Team after all. Slowing a boss is handy, and might be an important ability to have a "Base XP" run where you don't have Sex Ops and Pathfinders. But for the most part you just don't kite bosses there. Could help vs. Athena, but only if you don't actually have the Sex Ops. Which is a very low percentage outcome but I suppose could happen.
  17. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    This is why I would do it like anticipation... one would not be able to stack any venom unless they were properly microing it, and just like how anticipation works, any splash that effected other units would take their own point, such that if one had 20 points, and they splashed 10 units at once, twice, they would be out of venom stacks. This would proceed to cause them to wait a good deal of time to fill up. What Arc says is true, but it might not be entirely true.

    Lets say the Chem Expert had the HMG, and was splashing venom on every unit under the sun. All of that venom would start to stack up as simply bonus damage.

    Anticipation style venom would let the HMG stack, but would severly limit how long they could do it.
  18. SirGalahad

    SirGalahad New Member

    That works too. BTW, the skill you are talking about is called Concentration. Anticipation is the +15/30% damage for >9 range.
  19. Pyromaniac

    Pyromaniac Well-Known Member

    Deer god...

    Thanks for catching me on that.

    Scumbag brain swaps skills like it was nothing

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