A petition for H3 igniter to affect pyro skills.

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by Zuriel, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member


    The recent changes made to pyro flamer have been noted and appreciated.

    Specifically, the damage buff to light units with Burst Fire, and the increased synergy with Burn! Burst fire, inferno and frenzy.

    Now, to complete the class, I suggest the H3 igniter skill affects all pyro skills.

    This will be an outright buff, and it will increase the DPS potential of the Pyro.

    Why is this necessary?

    1. To be in tandem with other classes' passives.

    Currently, classes with Critical (passive skill) can have their skills damage with crit. This implies that the passives stack with the skills. eg. Osok with crit.

    Now, I see no reason why the Pyro shouldn't benefit from this as well. By allowing the buff from H3 to apply to all pyro skills, it would show homogeneous effects of passives on active skills, in line with other existing classes.

    2. To narrow the gap between the two trees.

    Flamer's smite, at level 3, shaves off 30% of health from units in a cluster. For a T1 skill, it is very powerful. This skill will be essential throughout the game, and even on bosses. It does incredible damage as well.

    The dps tree of the flamethrower, currently isn't as powerful as the tank tree in terms of damage output.

    Thus, a further buff of the pyro tree can be made, with the inclusion of H3's effects on all pyro skills.

    What are your thoughts on this proposal?
  2. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Here's my thoughts:

    With the change to how Frenzy Works, there isn't really a reason NOT to go 3 Igniter, 1 Burst Fire now. The Igniter is a passive boost on an energy intensive combo class, and you don't need level 3 to be able to stand a chance of getting kills for Frenzy anymore.

    Considering that now the most optimal build for the Pyro Flamethrower typically is:

    3 H3 Igniter, 1 Burst Fire, 2 Frenzy, 2 Burn!, 1 Inferno, cross over into Smite/Vengeance. There's no reason to really bother blacking out the Pyromancer tree.

    So why buff the clearly optimal way to already build a Pyro Flamethrower?

    Smite holds the dubious honor of being the ONLY skill that ACTUALLY 'Scales to Nightmare'. It's more effective the higher the Squad Rating/Mode is. There isn't a single skill that can really say that. The best they can say is "Equally effective against all difficulties" such as Precision Shot, Countermeasures, and Force Push. Thus picking out the one example that breaks all the rules of the game is typically not a good basis for argument.

    Though considering that a proper Pyro Flamethrower already has 40% attack speed, 120% damage increased off a base 30% increase available in is damage (If played right), it's not like his DPS is bad. The problem comes from the fact that the Pyro Flamethrower does not play nice with Alpha Company as a storyline. It's FAAAAAR more effective in Easy Company, or hell, even Apollo Security Team, than it ever is Alpha Company just by the nature of it's challenges and typical team composition.
  3. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    Osok deals scaling damage now, arc. 2% with the MM rifle and 3% with the barrett.
  4. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well, only against Bosses or am I missing something?

    But still, it doesn't diminish the validity of my point I think.
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    If anything I'd change the way burst fire works (lower cooldown) as it has become a bit obscene in that it is better to keep it at level 1 rather than max it out - hits from Burst fire trigger Frenzy so similar to Smite, you want to amass an enemy horde to stack more frenzy.

    High cooldown means that is even more important than instagrilling a few of them with maxed burst fire.

    H3 igniter is fine as is. Comparing it to smite is unfair as smite is active and h3 igniter is passive. Also, while smite may scale due to being % based, it can't kill anything and the 30% becomes weaker after every damage the target takes as it is 30% of current not max. H3 igniter damage on the other hand remains constant.
  6. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    You're missing the point, Ghost.

    Comparing the two trees, pyro is less effective than the other simply because there is a damage cap to burn, and not for smite. These two skills are the main antiboss skills and clearly allowing H3 igniter to buff a skill like Burn! can make it so much more potent in difficult games. Bumping the damage cap can also help.

    And Arc, IMO, the optimal build is still 3 burst 1 H3. For maximal effectiveness with Frenzy, burst still has to be of sufficient damage to clear mobs. Level 1 of that isn't going to get you anywhere.
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Nah, the reason you got Burst 3 was to make sure you got kills for Frenzy, and maybe to cover your reload cycle with the Flamethrower. Granted the latter point is still true. But the former has no validity what so ever. And most people will tell you (And were trying to tell me, arguably falsely, before the Frenzy Buffs), that Inferno does everything Burst Fire does, but better! Which is more or less true.

    Plus the point of Burn! isn't the damage (Though 200 pure DPS, particularly for such a low energy cost, is kinda hard to beat unless you're talking OpComm) necessarily, but the Armor Debuff. Which is decent for Alpha Company because the bosses all have relatively shit armor allowing you to easily tank them into the negative which results in FAAAAAR more DPS, particularly with Sheng's Boys about.
  8. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    What Arc said, and pretty much waht I meant.

    The Smite part wasn't the main part of my argument, it was a general reply to matters raised.

    3 H3 1 BF is the way to go. 3BF is mostly detrimental to you until the very end when there are no small mobs around anyhow.

    BURN's role is as Arc correctly stated to reduce armor by 10. The 2ndary part is damage. Consider that for Seth, IVAX flamethrower is a shitty weapon to use but you use it for the armor debuff and the burn damage is a nice add on and quite hefty too when you let it go to 200/sec.
  9. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Yep. Burn Damage might only tick up to 200/sec. But -10 armor equates to +10 damage times the what, 9 Gauss Rifle users among Sheng's Boys for a free 225 DPS (Considering the .4 attack speed) just from that alone. Got some pistol whippers/SMG users that number skyrockets even more.
  10. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    OSOK level 3 now instantly kills non-heroics and deals hard number damage with fractional bonus damage based on the boss's current hitpoints. OSOK scales, and it scales extremely well.
  11. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    Shouldn't we standardise and allow all skills to be affected by passives?

    This should be implemented across the board.
  12. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I would welcome if you could provide a reasoned counter-argument why you have it right and we have it all wrong.

    Impassioned statements don't tend to convince people.

    Your main point is "other passives affect actives for all other classes".
    This is incorrect - afaik that only applies to passives which provide a passive damage buff on the character or a critical strike chance.
    Outside of H3: Concentration, IMA, Synergy, and several others do not. And as an example, I don't think having IMA and Synergy stack damage onto Overdrive is going to be pretty.

    Face it, H3 igniter is not a passive that buffs the class per se, it buffs a weapon (Flamethrower MK-3). And for a T1, it is incredibly powerful in buffing an already powerful weapon.
    I can't think of any other T1 that buffs passively a weapon by 30% damage and 3 range + Burn effect.
    Things like Weapon proficiency/expertise and ballistics are T2 passives and only buff up to 20%.
  13. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    First off, I don't think I am right, nor you are wrong. The whole point of this is to improve the pyro tree to make it comparable to the other tree.

    Again, being the dps tree, it doesn't do nearly as much dps to bosses, and non heroic mobs, moreso for bosses. Adding this buff will help bridge the gap.

    The -10 armour and all is good, but for a skill that takes time to charge up to that state, it is not nearly as useful in many boss battles as one would think. Many bosses will move around, or force you to move around. Ie. Seth's discharge and polarity, cerebus etc. The effect isn't maximised at all. Adding this buff will help increase its dps capability.

    Perhaps I overlooked a few passive skills, and I see how it might be op in some cases. But I still think pyro could have another go at increased dps.
  14. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Well... if you have a Pyromancer he should be the one tanking Seth (Seriously, he has NO trouble at all doing it with XS or KA), and thus can just sit still and Burninate to his heart's content. And it's a smarter choice because you won't have to worry about Vengeance Stuns fucking over the ability to max your polarity stacking. Again with Cerberus SOMETHING must tank him, or it's GG No Re, plain and simple, so he should be sitting still to ramp up Burn. If you have to worry about Cerberus moving around, your team is already dead. Cromo being kited around the lab and nowhere else makes it very easy for you to just get the Mark at the start of the fight, then Burninate to your heart's content. IVAX is hard to Burn! (Unless you got a suicidal KA tank or one of the rare situations where he just sits still while Long Range Missile Moding) And Perses can be, though you can ramp it up pretty well between Firewaves. And during Charlie's Boy Toy, you're high ground camping which makes it pretty easy to put some Burning on him, which makes the DPS skyrocket from all of Sheng's Boys. Not to mention it's pretty easy to ramp up against Titans.

    I suppose a better question would be: Just what would the Helium-3 Igniter really DO to Burn, Burst Fire, and Inferno? Add pure damage? That seems kind of strange since most of those skills have been buffed and balanced for pure damage over their lifetimes. Burn being capped at 200 like it was, Inferno damage dropped, Burst Fire buffed. Burning effect? Already what BURN! does, again makes it even more idiot proof to realize you should go 3 Igniter, 1 Burst Fire, and Inferno already does it.

    FV debuff? Then again you're just pure increasing damage on the skills again, though better since you're also effecting Napalm, Nukes, etc. If buffed damage is a non starter, why would even higher buffed team damage fly?

    I mean we're kinda running out of effects that might logically go on Fire now. About the only one I see used that I haven't covered is slowing. Though DAMNED if that wouldn't be OP as fuck to be able to Burn for some pretty good DPS, melting armor, AND slowing the enemy down. I mean come on... what more could you want on it? That's a damned NOTD hat trick of every effect you could really want on a single target.

    The problem isn't that Pyro is Bad. it's not even that Order is good. In fact Order is nigh useless about 60% of the time because Alpha Company's playstyle just doesn't really let the Order Flamethrower grip and rip, and play his game, you'll spend a good portion of the game going, "Fuck you FO... let me actually get close enough to the enemy to do shit... fuck you Engineer, get your Towers and Agrons out of my way... fuck you MM, I actually had stuff Shatter Worthy and you sniped me out!" more or less over and over and over.

    I love my Flamethrower, both trees. And yes, I spend a majority of the Alpha Company storyline muttering that stuff over and over.
  15. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    I never have issues finding targets to BURN! and with proper positioning, they won't move out of your range either. H3 is good throughout and Burst Fire early-mid. Inferno is good mid game, not so great vs IVAX/Perses.
    And with BURN! costing only 10 energy to use pretty infinitely, that's an insanely good skill already.
    I just can't see how H3 should buff those skills other than damage when the damage is already superb. I certainly can't think of many other T2 talents that deal 200 damage per second and essentially cost nothing. It stacks with FV/HE ammo too. Inferno is like an AoE BURN that you don't need to channel and can be combined.

    Order on the other hand can't kill anything on its own, especially masses, prior to Faith. Pre-faith you rely on whatever gun you are using and your team team to kill what you soften with smite. Shatter is a weak OSOK.

    Once you get Faith though you just run around Faithing everything and start to shine in the late game, particularly vs bosses and titans. But early game Order just sits around leeching xp and just slowing/softening stuff.
  16. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    I'm telling you, H-3 Igniter should increase width, not range. I'm tempted to say level 3 adds fire vuln to attacks, but that's probly overkill.
  17. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    ^ Has also mentioned width, not range to The Man.

    It's something the Hellions get upgraded in the campaign. So I would think there is a basis in the code to do it.
  18. Zuriel

    Zuriel Well-Known Member

    Ah. Guys, I would like to officially rescind my request.

    I've tried out the 3H3 build again. Its more than adequate. Thank you for your time.
  19. Ramses II
    • Donator

    Ramses II Help, I can't change my title!

    How about h3 igniter increasing the range of burst fire, burn!, and inferno? Gives more reason to black out the tree without being incredibly overpowered, and allows the flamethrower to compete more easily with the long range aoe that is alpha company.
  20. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    Except there is very little reason in Alpha Company not to already max out the Igniter and just 1 off on Burst Fire. So I don't really see that inspiring people to black out the tree necessarily.

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