A fair playing field

Discussion in 'NOTD Discussion' started by MSluiter, May 3, 2012.

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  1. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    Introduction
    A recent patch was introduced that rewards players with increased move speed based purely on their rating. It is my personal opinion that this was completely unnecessary and never should have been implemented. There is also discussion of a stat bonus for rank that I also feel is unnecessary. The player incentives thread has become mostly about the CP system change so I feel this deserves its own discussion. I was told that I should make a compelling argument for why these changes should not be implemented so here it is. I will show backing evidence that experienced players already have an extremely large advantage over their new player counterparts.

    Assumptions
    For the most part, high rating comes with high experience. The basic gameplay of each match doesn’t change much from game to game. This means that with experience, players become better at the game (learn what weapons/equipment to use when, how to kite, places to avoid, when to stick with the team, etc.) and their rating improves. This is why you will find that most players with high experience have a rating that hovers in the 1900+ range.
    For this example I will compare a "New" player to an "Expert" player using the 1st available, and one of the most widely used and balanced classes in the game, the rifleman.
    -For weight, player has a basic load out of a Gauss rifle, C2 armor, 40 magazines equipped, 1 ocular implant
    -Players reach level 12 in game
    -Game length is 90 minutes

    New player
    Sub 100 experience
    Sub 1600 rating
    2 stat points (Assigned to intelligence because that seems to be what people always tell players to max *rolls eyes*)

    Expert player
    80,000 experience
    1900+ rating
    22 Stat Points from rank
    7 Stat points from medals (no MOH)
    Stat points are evenly distributed across all stats (-1 in Strength)
    5 Weapon Mods + 3 damage and 2 speed, - 3 switch and 2 weight

    Stat allocation
    Expert Player
    Strength 5
    Endurance 6
    Agility 6
    Perception 6
    Intelligence 6

    New Player
    Strength 0
    Endurance 0
    Endurance 0
    Agility 0
    Perception 0
    Intelligence 2

    Expert Player Advantages
    New player health 200
    Expert player health 268
    34% more health

    New player health regeneration .3515
    Expert player health regeneration .5621
    60% higher health regeneration

    New player lives per game 5
    Expert player lives per game .1
    (based on .02% chance per game minute - Needs confirmation. I don’t think this is right.)

    New player movespeed 2.15
    Expert player movespeed 2.31 (Without rating bonus)
    Expert player movespeed 2.43 (With rating bonus)
    7% faster (Without rating bonus)
    13% faster (With rating bonus)

    New player reload time 1.5 seconds
    Expert player reload time 1.02 seconds
    32% decreased reload time.

    New player sight range 10
    Expert player sight range 11.8
    18% further sight range

    New player energy 110
    Expert player energy 130
    18% more base energy

    New player extra bonus talent about every 10.5 games
    Expert player extra bonus talent about every 3.5 games

    New player combat knife damage 15.5
    Expert player combat knife damage 20.5
    32% more powerful knife

    15% greater weapon damage

    10% greater weapon attack speed

    100% greater credit gain per credit

    The only thing new player has going for him is a handful of extra lives.

    Conclusion
    Repeal the move speed bonus for rank and do not add the stat point bonus being discussed.

    See above. Experienced players have a MASSIVE advantage over new players. A hit that might trigger a life on the New player wouldn’t even trigger one on the Expert player (even if they had lives). Experienced player are already far better equipped to deal with a high squad rating than a new player due to increased health, health regen, movespeed, DPS, etc. It is the responsibility of the player to allocate their stats (and credits) appropriately if they are dying. Experienced player do not need one more advantage given to them. Movement speed is also rarely helpful in situations that you would lose a life. Typically you are blind, hugged, or in a holdout situation when you die. A boost to move speed makes little difference here.

    With regards to players tanking their rating to make the game easier, it is the responsibility of the community to chastise them for such a pathetic exploit. They should be treated in the same regard as a bank hacker. High rating should be a badge of honor that you have committed time and effort to playing the best you can.

    Final Thoughts
    Advantages from Stat points are actually huge. I never expected that they made such a big difference. A more balanced approach from the beginning probably would have been to give every player a fixed number of stat points regardless of rank that they could allocate as they saw fit. But, this is the system that has been around for a while and people are used to it, so I don’t think it should be changed now. Also, the weight tolerance bonus from Endurance is tiny even with max Endurance. If you are hoping to gain speed from weight tolerance, don’t bother.

    Please let me know if any of these calculations are incorrect so I can make corrections. I did the best I could but there might be errors.
  2. Ryan III

    Ryan III Well-Known Member

    Read 1/4 of it for now, and calculations are right
  3. ArcanePariah
    • Development Team
    • Map Developer

    ArcanePariah Miracle Worker

    I would change some assumptions:

    Expert player will have on average, 5 weapon mods, it is effectively impossible to have more credits then XP, only at 120K XP or greater can that happen. Also on avearges an expert player will have only 7 level 3 medals, with DSM/MoH not being had, and one of Navy/Life/Silver not being done either. Very few have 9 lvl 3 medals (like less then 5 people on NA that I know of)
  4. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    No need to give players extra health for being better. You can tank easily with base stats alone. In NOTD:AM we had our health REDUCED for being good, but had other bonuses like speed increased to compensate. "When you're good you dont die."
  5. Ghost
    • Warden

    Ghost Warden

    IMO I like shield type and energy regen as boni, regardless of class. Maybe somewhat higher health regen too.
    That's in terms of getting boni which aren't that powerful you need to grind towards them, but nice to have.
  6. Emperor

    Emperor New Member

    I think you're forgetting something.

    This game isn't competitive. There's no such thing as one player having an advantage over the other.

    One player having an advantage at all, aside from unnecessary experience whoring, means the ENTIRE TEAM has the advantage against their actual enemy: the zombies.

    I am concerned with all these bonuses that a fully decked team might just bend over and spank whatever they're playing though. As it is now, even at 2k rating, people are winning this game and they have a tiny fraction of what would be considered "every advantage". I suspect with Kith's player incentives and when people are hitting full mods and stats that the current difficulties won't match.

    It's also remarkably easy to get and maintain 2000 rating. I've been doing it at least since I was 10k, and I only drop after I do stuff like playing a CB SubMarks in Pub.

    I'd like to ask a serious question: how does any boon awarded in NOTD actually detriment the new guy?
  7. ArcturusV

    ArcturusV New Member

    The ONLY way it does, the only way... is when you have a guy who just ups and pretty much solos the entire Newbie Mode campaign single handedly. And the newbie sits there going "Well damn... I didn't do shit, that was boring".

    Though it's VERY rare that happens. The last time I really saw a game feeling that way was back when the Weapon Tech had Unlimited Turret Works and would have 10 turrets permanently planted just instantly destroying anything, even bosses.
  8. Emperor

    Emperor New Member

    I'd file that under unnecessary whoring.

    I find it only takes a [name of item withheld] to spank recruit mode, no matter your class.
  9. Blaqk
    • Development Team
    • Webmaster/Liaison

    Blaqk NOTD Staff: Bugs, Pugs, and Scruggs

    ^ What those two said.

    I have a question for you MSluiter. I've seen you farming Survival with people in the channel. Would you have farmed all of those games if you weren't rewarded for it?
  10. Clown
    • Donator

    Clown Well-Known Member

    Your estimates for "expert" player are a bit high. Arc's are closer. I think that <15 people on NA have level 3+ medals in everything except for MOH - but that is rapidly changing (blame AP). I dunno about SEA/EU. Off the top of my head for NA, I can think of LA, Lyl, AA, AP, Lucid?, Wink?, Pyro, Jercy?, I dunno who else... But I'm sure I'm missing a few. Those with ? I'm not sure if they finished off. This is out of a population of several hundred.

    Also, 8 weapon mods @ 80k is unlikely, unless they were like the few players who were farming surv extremely heavily before it got patched, like you and linky. I'm at 3 mods with 58k, have level 3+ in most medals (missing medic, bronze, and moh). I do not see very many players with medals as filled out as mine.

    Point is that you are kinda showing the perfect storm of stats and bonus gains here... 95% of players does not have that.

    Also, I agree with Blaqk's implied point. Why shouldn't we get some bonuses from having higher xp and rating? Don't you enjoy getting a few extra credits from having a higher rank? Are you saying that +150xp is the only reward you would want for having gained the experience of playing a class to its potential? I am damn proud of my ability to trap and take no hits and kill everything with a rifleman. I know that I can solo a game if need be. Why shouldn't I have a few extra perks like a little faster MS or some extra shielding or dmg? It helps my team anyways, doesn't it?

    A MS of 2.43 isn't that impressive. Charging enemies will still catch up, with ease. The extra HP... eh. It's a nonissue for anyone but tanks. Ditto regen. A bit more sight would be nice since we are playing on a naturally dark map, even with 9 in per. And who doesn't want extra energy regen? The difference is hardly noticeable.

    I think Kith's changes to bonuses for stats and rating would be good if added. I appreciate the fact that he recognizes that we play for personal gain - even within a team. Screw even playing fields. In a war against the zombies, I want every single advantage I can beg borrow or steal.
  11. MSluiter

    MSluiter Member

    I didn’t think this was that unreasonable. Right now the only medals I haven’t finished are Bronze star (most 80k finished this before the nerf) and Lifesaving medal (because I don’t really enjoy playing medic) and MOH. Also, 85k lifetime earning.

    Perhaps this is not the norm, so I’ve decided to scale it back to 7 medals and 5 mods.


    As far as I know, here is no way to increase energy regen. Intel only increases the total energy pool.

    Yes. While you are not competing directly against your teammates, your teammates determine the difficulty of the game. If a 1500 rating player plays with a 2000 rating player, the game becomes more difficult for the 1500 rating player and easier for the 2000 rating player, but the 2000 rating player keeps all of his advantages.

    Also, typically in co op games there is still balance to the characters. It’s disheartening to be the player with a shitty character when you see someone else gets a far better character.

    It is much easier to maintain rating now because the autosave doesn't work. So if you die and leave you don't lose rating. (Although, I’ll give you the benefit of doubt that you are just better than most)

    I actually like survival. I did some farming, but most of my wins are actually full team survival (or started with a full team).
    I do think there should be rewards. But I think they should be mostly cosmetic in nature, or some sort of tradeoff. I take full advantage of the system in place. That doesn’t mean I think it is the best system.


    I would also like to add I don't think the current system should be changed at this point. I just don't think it needs to become further imbalanced.
  12. Lord NiteShade
    • Wiki Founder
    • Community Leader

    Lord NiteShade NOTD Staff: Wiki Founder/TeamSpeak Admin

    Pistol, Shotgun, Flamer, Stinger, Arc Reactor. One of those generally does it.
  13. Kith
    • Development Team
    • Designer

    Kith NOTD Staff: Anti-Fun Wizard Skeleton

    MSluiter, I'm going to be perfectly honest with you here, and as blunt as possible so I can get to my point without pussyfooting around the issue. Keep in mind I do not intend to offend you with this, but this whole topic reeks of the following:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    I don't care if you're one of the "filthy rich people", you're still directly advocating penalizing people who worked for these bonuses because they play with people who didn't earn the same bonuses, and that's kind of crap. It literally takes from those who worked for an advantage to give to those who didn't, and that's not fair, no matter how much you think it is. Now then, onwards to replying.

    I'd like to mention that said advantages required a great deal of work to obtain and maintain, as will the other advantages that are being proposed. This is not something where your brother can put in a cheat code and kill all of the monsters and steal all of the gold, this is when the player actively works to get and keep these bonuses. I would be right there with you advocating fairness and a level playing field if this didn't require a great deal of effort over a long period of time to have. The players that have these things earned them, and as much as you go on about fairness, it's hardly fair to them to have the bonuses taken from them.

    And yet MMOs are a lucrative business.

    In my experience, it works just fine.

    No, that just makes you kind of a hypocrite.

    The proposed changes would be balanced, though. You only get the bonuses if you work for them. I don't see a problem with that.
  14. Archangel

    Archangel Well-Known Member

  15. Banshee

    Banshee New Member

    Hi.

    Look i can say the only reason I have carried on playing NOTD is due to the "ranking" and rewards. See what you could get from playing with people made me strive for them as well.

    I enjoy the rating system, as when I started out(getting out of the recrute stage) I enjoyed it when the game rating made it more diffecult. Seeing "Hardened" I was like "HELLZ YE! bring it." Just to see how much I've improved and if I could handle it.
    I can't say that all people think they way I do, but that just me :D
  16. Shooz
    • Donator

    Shooz NOTD Staff: Killjoy

    That last post kind of broke Msluiter's argurment. I'm locking this post. IMO, it's resolved.
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